Window of Time for Nichols murder

[Fisherman]

So you think telling Mizen there is a policeman in Bucks Row waiting for him, without Paul hearing anything, is an easier solution than to get rid of the Knife in the drain system where Nichols was killed or all the way long to Mizen ?!


The Baron

I think it would be very hard to throw the knife away unnoticed, and that it would pose a very large risk. If Paul noticed it, the game would be up. In that respect, I have no problems saying that it may have seemed a better solution to Lechmere to hold on to the knife. Also, I think we should avoid presupposing that a serial killer would make the same kind of calls that we do, especially if that killer is a narcissist and a psychopath, something that must be regarded a very clear possibility. In essence, if we were Lechmere we would perhaps have tried to ditch the knife. Then again, if we were Lechmere, we would not kill a woman, slit her throat and cut her belly open would we? And that is the crux - we are NOT Lechmere.

[Fisherman]

Is this in code?
".....There is nothing lily with wither 15 or 10 minutes...."

Sorry, I thought that was funny.




If, as PC Neil remarked, blood was still flowing from the throat wound, she may have still been technically alive.
Accepting gravity will allow blood to flow for a very short time (measured in seconds), the most likely cause would be her arterial system was still under pressure, meaning her heart was still beating, or had just ceased within seconds.

She bled as Mizen saw her too, Jon. And if Payne-James' estimation was correct, then that would have been the last drops exiting her, and Lechmere would be the killer. The problem being that we cannot know for certain that Payne-James' estimation WAS correct. Every case is individual, and strange things happen every now and then. But I prefer to believe that there was nothing at all strange about it, and that this points straight to the carman.

The lily thing IS funny, but it is not as funny to have a Mac that thinks it knows more than yourself about what should and should not be said...

[Fisherman]

My question is, was there a drain near or around the spot where Nichols was found ?!

I am just getting answers like, if there were, they would have been searched!!!


The Baron

I don' t know whether there were drains nearby. But there are street plans that will involve drains, I´d say. Maybe somebody has them at hand and can help out? Not that I invest in believing that the knife could have been dropped there and remained unfound during the search.

[rjpalmer]

If, as PC Neil remarked, blood was still flowing from the throat wound, she may have still been technically alive.
Accepting gravity will allow blood to flow for a very short time (measured in seconds), the most likely cause would be her arterial system was still under pressure, meaning her heart was still beating, or had just ceased within seconds.

Wickerman, with that in mind, what do you make of the following, in regards to the discovery of Alice Mackenzie's body? (The timeline is from Mackenzie's "victim" page, taken from inquest testimony)


12:45 A.M.: It begins to rain in Whitechapel.

12:50 A.M.: PC Walter Andrews returns to Castle Alley on his regular beat, about twenty-seven minutes having passed since he left the area. This time, however, he discovers the body of a woman lying on the pavement, her head angled toward the curb and her feet toward the wall. Blood flowed from two stabs in the left side of her neck and her skirts had been lifted, revealing blood across her abdomen, which had been mutilated.

The pavement beneath the body of Alice McKenzie was still dry, placing her death sometime after 12:25 A.M. and before 12:45 A.M., when it began to rain. In her possession were found a clay pipe often referred to as a 'nose warmer' and a bronze farthing. She was noticed to have been wearing some 'odd stockings.'

P.C. Andrews heard someone approaching the alley soon after, and ordered the man (Lewis Jacobs) to stay with the body while he went to fetch help.

1:10 A.M.: Inspector Edmund Reid arrives only moments before Dr. George Bagster Phillips. Reid notices that blood continues to flow from the throat into the gutter (about 1:09 A.M.) but it begins to clot upon the arrival of Phillips (about 1:12 A.M.)


Adding to the confusion, Dr. Philips elsewhere states during the inquest that Mackenzie's death (from the carotid artery being cut) would have been 'instantaneous.'

Yet blood is still following from her neck 25-45 minutes later, as observed by Inspector Edmund Reid, who was specifically looking for it.

What does this do to similar observations/claims made in the Nichols' murder? If the same holds true in her case, could she not have been dead for much longer than is being suggested on this thread? Cheers, RP

[The Rookie Detective]

Nichols may have been attacked earlier than previously thought based on the McKenzie case but it must have occured AFTER the previous policeman passed through Bucks Row.

We can therefore establish at the very least that the attack on Nichols occured between the previous policeman passing by on their beat, to the point when Paul witnessed Lechmere.

Do we have an exact time for the previous policeman passing through the murder site before the attack occured?

the Rookie

[Herlock Sholmes]

My question is, was there a drain near or around the spot where Nichols was found ?!

I am just getting answers like, if there were, they would have been searched!!!


The Baron

You’re perhaps getting those answers because none of us on here, as far as I know, are experts on the Whitechapel drainage system. I can’t imagine that the subject has come up during Fisherman or Wickerman’s research either. If he did chuck his knife down a drain he would have been lucky if there was one right next to the body. The downside of this action would have been that if the police had looked and found it (knives don’t float) then Lechmere would have been arrested straight away as a killer that had already fled the scene wouldn’t have dumped his knife.

[The Rookie Detective]

Regarding the murder weapon...

If JTR didn't take the weapon with him and dropped it down the drain... and yet no weapon was ever found...

could that mean it was missed...

and the knife is still there today?!

highly unlikely of course...but still more likely than 75% of the alleged suspects (that we still consider today) having a chance of being JTR.

it truly baffles me how some suspects are STILL considered to be JTR when some of them weren't even in the country at the time of all of all the murders.

how is it possible for Sickert to be considered a suspect over the likes of Lechmere when Sickert wasn't even in London?

Being able to connect suspects the scene of a crime is paramount.

Sickert was out of London
Lechmere was found standing over Nichols

unless we start dismissing some of the inpossible suspects, the case will NEVER be solved...which appears to be the want of some people.

sensationalist books pointing to impossible suspects are the reason why the case got saturated with nonsense.

surely the priority is to solve the case? Even if it ends the myth of JTR, finding a way to try and properly solve the case must be the most important thing?

Thoughts please?

the Rookie

[Joshua Rogan]

Nichols may have been attacked earlier than previously thought based on the McKenzie case but it must have occured AFTER the previous policeman passed through Bucks Row.

We can therefore establish at the very least that the attack on Nichols occured between the previous policeman passing by on their beat, to the point when Paul witnessed Lechmere.

Do we have an exact time for the previous policeman passing through the murder site before the attack occured?

the Rookie

PC Neil said he was last there half an hour before he found the body, ie around 03:15

[The Baron]

Regarding the murder weapon...

If JTR didn't take the weapon with him and dropped it down the drain... and yet no weapon was ever found...

could that mean it was missed...

and the knife is still there today?!

highly unlikely of course...but still more likely than 75% of the alleged suspects (that we still consider today) having a chance of being JTR.

Either this, or Lechmere was not the Ripper, he will not keep the knife on his person, and go talking to people and searching policemen.


The Baron

[Joshua Rogan]

I don' t know whether there were drains nearby. But there are street plans that will involve drains, I´d say. Maybe somebody has them at hand and can help out? Not that I invest in believing that the knife could have been dropped there and remained unfound during the search.

For what it's worth, I have had a look at all the contemporary and modern illustrations of the scene that I can find, but can't see any drains at all in the vicinity. Likewise Street-view (although the curent view is compromised by the Crossrail roadworks).

[The Baron]

For what it's worth, I have had a look at all the contemporary and modern illustrations of the scene that I can find, but can't see any drains at all in the vicinity. Likewise Street-view (although the curent view is compromised by the Crossrail roadworks).

Thank you Sir!


The Baron

[Wickerman]

For what it's worth, I have had a look at all the contemporary and modern illustrations of the scene that I can find, but can't see any drains at all in the vicinity. Likewise Street-view (although the curent view is compromised by the Crossrail roadworks).

Hi Joshua.

My inclination when Baron first asked was to point out that street drainage was not as widespread in the 19th century as it is today. There was a sewer system with access via manhole covers, as we see in Mitre Sq. adjacent to the body of Eddowes.
As for street drains for runoff, I don't recall seeing any in photographs of the time. Perhaps on Whitechapel High Street, or Commercial Street, but on a little backstreet like Bucks Row?

[The Baron]

Also, I think we should avoid presupposing that a serial killer would make the same kind of calls that we do, especially if that killer is a narcissist and a psychopath, something that must be regarded a very clear possibility.

Psychopath doesn't mean he was plain stupid.

Hay officer, come here, this man has just spotted me alone near a freshly killed woman, and I still have the bloody Knife with me!


The Baron

[Wickerman]

Wickerman, with that in mind, what do you make of the following, in regards to the discovery of Alice Mackenzie's body? (The timeline is from Mackenzie's "victim" page, taken from inquest testimony)


12:45 A.M.: It begins to rain in Whitechapel.

12:50 A.M.: PC Walter Andrews returns to Castle Alley on his regular beat, about twenty-seven minutes having passed since he left the area. This time, however, he discovers the body of a woman lying on the pavement, her head angled toward the curb and her feet toward the wall. Blood flowed from two stabs in the left side of her neck and her skirts had been lifted, revealing blood across her abdomen, which had been mutilated.

The pavement beneath the body of Alice McKenzie was still dry, placing her death sometime after 12:25 A.M. and before 12:45 A.M., when it began to rain. In her possession were found a clay pipe often referred to as a 'nose warmer' and a bronze farthing. She was noticed to have been wearing some 'odd stockings.'

P.C. Andrews heard someone approaching the alley soon after, and ordered the man (Lewis Jacobs) to stay with the body while he went to fetch help.

1:10 A.M.: Inspector Edmund Reid arrives only moments before Dr. George Bagster Phillips. Reid notices that blood continues to flow from the throat into the gutter (about 1:09 A.M.) but it begins to clot upon the arrival of Phillips (about 1:12 A.M.)


Adding to the confusion, Dr. Philips elsewhere states during the inquest that Mackenzie's death (from the carotid artery being cut) would have been 'instantaneous.'

Yet blood is still following from her neck 25-45 minutes later, as observed by Inspector Edmund Reid, who was specifically looking for it.

What does this do to similar observations/claims made in the Nichols' murder? If the same holds true in her case, could she not have been dead for much longer than is being suggested on this thread? Cheers, RP

Hi RJ.

Good point. Though the cuts to Nichols were the more severe:
"The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed."

So we might be allowed to guess her system would drain out sooner than say, McKenzie?
It seems McKenzie had two cuts to the neck, both on the same side, dividing the carotid artery & other vessels but not injuring the windpipe - therefore, her right? side was not cut, only her left.
It might take McKenzie twice as long to bleed out as Nichols?

Also, the thing about the ground being dry beneath her body.
Who moved it to look before Phillips arrived? I'd say no-one.
No-one dare disturb the body before the doctor arrives. Therefore, the body had laid on wet pavement for quite some time, and a warm body will dry out the pavement the longer it lays there.
So, it is not true to assume she was murdered before it began to rain.

Also, I know police take notes while on their beat, but the actual time it begins & ends raining is not something I would expect a policeman to make note of. This must be guesswork, so maybe out 5 minutes either way?

[Herlock Sholmes]

. unless we start dismissing some of the inpossible suspects, the case will NEVER be solved...which appears to be the want of some people.

Hello Rookie,

The problem is that there are very few suspects that we can categorically dismiss. I can’t think of many - Neill Cream, Prince Eddie, Van Gogh and that’s about it. No matter how unlikely some are (and there will always be differences of opinion on likeliness) we can’t say that it’s impossible that they were guilty. I don’t think that Walter Sickert was Jack but unless we can show that it was impossible for him to have committed at least one of the murders he can’t be categorically dismissed. It’s almost impossible to undertake any winnowing process. You could do it based on your own interpretations and judgments of course.

We might all favour one suspect over another but I’ll suggest a list. It’s not in order but I’m just making a guess at what we would get down to if we asked all ripperologists to vote and we whittled it down to the top ten of the named suspects.

Kosminski
Druitt
Bury
Tumblety
Chapman
Maybrick
Lechmere
Hutchinson
Barnett
Sickert

Id say that these suspects get the most attention.