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Window of Time for Nichols murder

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Youíre perhaps getting those answers because none of us on here, as far as I know, are experts on the Whitechapel drainage system. I canít imagine that the subject has come up during Fisherman or Wickermanís research either. If he did chuck his knife down a drain he would have been lucky if there was one right next to the body. The downside of this action would have been that if the police had looked and found it (knives donít float) then Lechmere would have been arrested straight away as a killer that had already fled the scene wouldnít have dumped his knife.
    And we know this is the case because? I feel that you are making an unwarranted assumption.

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    • #47
      If there was a drainage point down Bucks Row I would guess it would be further down the road.

      The murder site is basically the bridging area over the train tracks.

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      • #48


        The murder site is basically the bridging area over the train tracks.
        [/QUOTE]


        So in terms of topography and geographical layout of the murder site; are there train tracks beneath?!

        The 3.07 train which was said to have passed Bucks Row around 3.20....could that have been the time of the killing?

        In other words, could the sound of the train passing having muted the noise of the attack?

        and furthermore...

        does that give the killer an alternate escape route from the scene?

        forgive my lack of knowledge concerning the exact layout of the murder site, but if the specific location is the bridging area over the tracks, could this be more important than initially realised?

        the rookie


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        • #49
          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
          Hi Joshua.
          ..... There was a sewer system with access via manhole covers, as we see in Mitre Sq. adjacent to the body of Eddowes.
          ..
          My mistake, the plate was access to a coal cellar (Coalplate), not a sewer.

          Regards, Jon S.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Stacker View Post

            And we know this is the case because? I feel that you are making an unwarranted assumption.
            If Jack had killed Polly in a deserted street and then walked away unseen why would he have felt the need to dump the knife at the scene? No one could have connected him to the crime and so would have had no reason to stop him. Also, he didnít dump the knife at any of the other crime scenes.
            Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 04-13-2019, 11:08 PM.
            Regards

            Herlock




            “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
            “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
            “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
            “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
            “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

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            • #51
              >>Was there no drain of any sort there ?! Are you sure of that, or this is just what you think ?!<<

              There was no darin when I first visited the site in the early 1980's, none of the old photographs show a drain and none of the contemporary drawings show a drain.

              In Xmere's case, the drain would have to be close by otherwise in the time it took to hide a knife he could have disappeared.

              On the other hand police didn't seem to have searched the drain at Dutfields Yard, which enabled the two dodgy private dicks to find/plant grape stalks.

              So to sum up, it's a very unlikely scenario, but not impossible.
              Last edited by drstrange169; 04-14-2019, 03:17 AM.
              dustymiller
              aka drstrange

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              • #52
                >>She bled as Mizen saw her too ..<<

                No, it's your theory that Mrs Nichols bled when Mizen arrived, based on your interpretation of one variant newspaper report that differs from the main reporting, which in turn has Mizen seeing blood leak when she was lifted on to the ambulance. To be of value, we need to be precise, otherwise new people will get an inaccurate view of what we actually know verses pet theories.
                Last edited by drstrange169; 04-14-2019, 03:18 AM.
                dustymiller
                aka drstrange

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                  Hello Rookie,

                  The problem is that there are very few suspects that we can categorically dismiss. I canít think of many - Neill Cream, Prince Eddie, Van Gogh and thatís about it. No matter how unlikely some are (and there will always be differences of opinion on likeliness) we canít say that itís impossible that they were guilty. I donít think that Walter Sickert was Jack but unless we can show that it was impossible for him to have committed at least one of the murders he canít be categorically dismissed. Itís almost impossible to undertake any winnowing process. You could do it based on your own interpretations and judgments of course.

                  We might all favour one suspect over another but Iíll suggest a list. Itís not in order but Iím just making a guess at what we would get down to if we asked all ripperologists to vote and we whittled it down to the top ten of the named suspects.

                  Kosminski
                  Druitt
                  Bury
                  Tumblety
                  Chapman
                  Maybrick
                  Lechmere
                  Hutchinson
                  Barnett
                  Sickert

                  Id say that these suspects get the most attention.
                  Kelly
                  Deeming
                  G U T

                  There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                    >>Was there no drain of any sort there ?! Are you sure of that, or this is just what you think ?!<<

                    There was no darin when I first visited the site in the early 1980's, none of the old photographs show a drain and none of the contemporary drawings show a drain.

                    In Xmere's case, the drain would have to be close by otherwise in the time it took to hide a knife he could have disappeared.

                    On the other hand police didn't seem to have searched the drain at Dutfields Yard, which enabled the two dodgy private dicks to find/plant grape stalks.

                    So to sum up, it's a very unlikely scenario, but not impossible.

                    Thank you Dusty, very infotmative!


                    The Baron
                    Last edited by The Baron; 04-14-2019, 04:21 AM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by GUT View Post

                      Kelly
                      Deeming
                      Wasn't Deeming in Africa during some of the crimes ?!


                      The Baron

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by The Baron View Post

                        Wasn't Deeming in Africa during some of the crimes ?!


                        The Baron
                        Maybe, maybe not. Itís far from certain. If he wasnít heís certainly a possible.
                        G U T

                        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by The Baron View Post

                          Wasn't Deeming in Africa during some of the crimes ?!


                          The Baron
                          Same we donít know with any certainty where Kelly was.
                          G U T

                          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by GUT View Post

                            Kelly
                            Deeming
                            Cheers GUT

                            If it was in terms of bookspace then Gull would get a mention too but I was just suggesting the suspects that continue to be the subject of speculation and discussion.

                            Is there a book proposing Deeming btw?
                            Regards

                            Herlock




                            “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                            “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                            “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                            “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                            “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                              My mistake, the plate was access to a coal cellar (Coalplate), not a sewer.
                              I was going to point that out, but you got there before me. There was a sewer entrance nearby though (not sure where exactly) and there was speculation at the
                              ​​​​​​time that the killer had used it to disappear from the scene. Which may have prompted the search reported here;

                              Morning Advertiser 2nd Oct;

                              "Great excitement was caused yesterday afternoon in Mitre-street by the descent of an exploring party of ten men through one of the man-holes into the sewers adjacent to the scene of the murder in Mitre-square. The search was made in the hope that some weapon, clothes, or clue would be found. After a long investigation, however, the party returned without having made any discovery"

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                                The murder site is basically the bridging area over the train tracks.
                                So in terms of topography and geographical layout of the murder site; are there train tracks beneath?!
                                More or less. Between the stableyard gates where Polly was found and the board scool to the west, the road ran over a railway cutting. The road was flanked by 8' brick walls and it was a good 20' vertical drop to the tracks though, so the killer would have had to be very daring and athletic to escape that way.

                                The 3.07 train which was said to have passed Bucks Row around 3.20....could that have been the time of the killing?

                                In other words, could the sound of the train passing having muted the noise of the attack?
                                Possibly, but no one knows for sure when the train passed, nor when Polly was murdered.

                                forgive my lack of knowledge concerning the exact layout of the murder site, but if the specific location is the bridging area over the tracks, could this be more important than initially realised?
                                The police certainly realised it, and spent a good deal of time searching the tracks for the murder weapon or any sign the killer had escaped that way. But found nothing.

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