The Mizen scam

[Jon Guy]

Hi Christer

Wait a sec here, Curious! Let´s ask Llewellyn about that:

"Mr. Henry Llewellyn, surgeon, of 152, Whitechapel-road, stated that at 4 o'clock on Friday morning he was called by the last witness to Buck's-row. The officer told him what he was wanted for."

Aha. So at 4 he was called by Thain. But after that, he had to get his clothes and shoes on and do the walk up to Buck´s Row, right?

I can only find The Times reporting that at 4 o`clock he was called by PC Thain. The other papers I checked (Daily News/ Daily Tel/ Evening Standard) all had at about 4 o`clock.

It was at 3.45am that Thain was urged to run and fetch a Doctor. Indeed, the Doctor was described by Neil as returning within ten minutes (Daily News) ie. 3.55am (if we want to be exact).

Dr Llewellyn lived about 5 mins from Bucks Row and PC Thain was 33 years old.

It does appear that Llewellyn was examining the body by 4.00am.

[Fisherman]

Hi Jon!

At 4 o clock or around that time is what the papers say. No paper says that he was approached by Thain BEFORE 4 o clock, although this MAY have been so.

I work from the assumption that Paul was the best source for the time, for reasons given above. If so, Neil was not in place until 3.48-3.49, approximately. If so, he could not have Thain in place at 3.45.

Neil himself says that he found the body at 3.45, and this too precludes Thain being there already. Neil examined the body first, then he heard Thain passing up at Brady Street and then he called him by means of his lamp, whereupon Thain had 130 yards to cover before he was in place, after which he needed to be informed and sent on his way.

So I see it as Neil having Thain arrive at about 3.51, and it may have been 3.52 before he set off in direction towards Whitechapel Road, add your five minutes and we have 3.57, Llewellyn gets informed and scuttles off to dress and get into his shoes (he would have been asleep as Thain arrived, I guess), and then they take off at the earliest around 4 o clock.

We will differ on the times, and we won´t be able to establish who is right. But even IF Llewellyn was in place at 4 o clock, then his best guess would be that it all went down in the middle of his estimation, that is around 3.45 - the time when Paul saw Lechmere. The Lilley scenario calls for a maximum stretch even here - and does not explain how she heard it all in one sequence.

The best,
Fisherman

[curious]

Okay, here we go again, the Lilley train once more!


So no, Lechmere is anything but exonerated by Lilley.

The best,
Fisherman

Sorry, Fish, Monty is right, Lechmere does not need to be exonerated. He is innocent. Always has been. Several million words won't change that.

I did throw in a few extra thoughts that gave you fuel (including trying to throw you a bone and giving Lechmere a minute or two more in Buck's Row) but none of that changes a thing -- Lechmere didn't do it and didn't arrive until about 15 minutes later.

Thanks, Jon, you saved me having to search out the information about the doctor's timing of arriving a few minutes before 4, which I had read and forgot to put in.

Fisherman, you're so funny when you put down other people's thoughts as conjecture with such disdain and superiority and don't appear to have any idea that that is all your entire case is. Can't help smiling as I think about it.

So, Fisherman, no matter how many more million words you choose to throw at this subject -- you ain't got a leg to stand on, as we say here in the States.

Love,

curious

Caz, hope you don't mind me borrowing from you?

[Fisherman]

Curious:

"Sorry, Fish, Monty is right"

Bugger - case closed, then.

"Lechmere didn't do it and didn't arrive until about 15 minutes later."

If you had only told me before, Curious - it would have saved heaps of time.

"Jon, you saved me having to search out the information about the doctor's timing of arriving a few minutes before 4, which I had read and forgot to put in. "

Yeah, let´s not afford Llewellyn the right to be correct himself - why would we do that? He WAS in Buck´s Row BEFORE 4 o clock, simple as that, in spite of having received Thain at his doorstep at 4. Good thinking - you will have this solved in no time! And I am the one conjecturing, so that´s not something you need to worry about yourself!

"no matter how many more million words you choose to throw at this subject -- you ain't got a leg to stand on"

Thanks for informing me - now I know then!

Thankfully yours,
Fisherman

[curious]

Curious:

"Sorry, Fish, Monty is right"

Bugger - case closed, then.

"Lechmere didn't do it and didn't arrive until about 15 minutes later."

If you had only told me before, Curious - it would have saved heaps of time.

"Jon, you saved me having to search out the information about the doctor's timing of arriving a few minutes before 4, which I had read and forgot to put in. "

Yeah, let´s not afford Llewellyn the right to be correct himself - why would we do that? He WAS in Buck´s Row BEFORE 4 o clock, simple as that, in spite of having received Thain at his doorstep at 4. Good thinking - you will have this solved in no time! And I am the one conjecturing, so that´s not something you need to worry about yourself!

"no matter how many more million words you choose to throw at this subject -- you ain't got a leg to stand on"

Thanks for informing me - now I know then!

Thankfully yours,
Fisherman

Ah, Sarcasm, Fisherman,

Just one of your many weapons of words. Water off a duck's back here, Fisherman.

but you're welcome. Your coming to the light would save you enormous amounts of time. But we all know that is not going to happen.

Just one more thought, then I'm no longer wasting my time on this.

Harriet Lilley's words were not necessarily one sequence as you replied to someone a post or two ago.

She mentioned the gasps and the train as being together. And anyone familiar with trains know you don't hear whispers above the noise of a train.

Then, too, was how the writer said she heard whispering -- if I recall correctly.

Then normally means later in time.

Too means she also heard whispering.

Sometime after the gasps and the train, she heard the whispering, but could not understand the words.

Fisherman, I'm out of here -- with a smile on my face at your outrageous antics.

Come into the light, man. Throw ego and obstinacy to the wind and just admit you're wrong. You'll experience joy and freedom.

Love,
curious

[Monty]

Monty:

"Christer is quite correct Curious,

Seeing as Cross is free from guilt, and the case is pure conjecture based on personal interpretation, he is actually completely free from guilt and remains so."

Getting more and more scientific by the day, Monty!

The best,
Fisherman

Heh, and you are getting more and more desperate Christer.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Curious:

"Ah, Sarcasm, Fisherman"

Sarcasm? Me ...??

"Harriet Lilley's words were not necessarily one sequence as you replied to someone a post or two ago."

Let´s hear her again, then:

"It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was dark, but a luggage train went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window."

Not "later", not "after that" but "too". There were the moans and gasps and there were the whispers TOO.

Sounds like it went down in one sequence alright. Furthermore, she says she "then" woke her husband - did she think the whispers was the right time to wake him - but not the painful moans and gasps...?

You know, it´s interesting how you claim that I am twisting and turning things, whereas you are very much at ease writing: "you saved me having to search out the information about the doctor's timing of arriving a few minutes before 4".

This would imply that Llewellyn somewhere stated that he arrived at Brown´s Stable Yards a few minutes before 4. I take it that you would not serve us a story that has no bearing in the factual world, Curious, so I will simply ask you to provide the evidence for this. And then we can reassume our discussion about twisting and turning and conjecturing and such things.

By the way, here are some examples of what he DID say, Llewellyn, as interpreted by the papers:

"Dr. Llewellyn, 152 Whitechapel road, deposed that on Friday morning about four o'clock he was called up by a policeman with whom he went to Buck's row." (Daily News)

"On Friday morning I was called to Buck's-row about four o'clock. The constable told me what I was wanted for." (Daily Telegraph)

"He deposed that on Friday morning about four o'clock he was called up by a policeman, with whom he went to Buck's-row." (East London Observer)

"On Friday morning I was called by the last witness to Buck's row about four o'clock. The constable told me what I was wanted for." (Evening Standard)

"On Friday morning I was called to Buck's row at about four o'clock. The constable told me what I was wanted for. On reaching Buck's row I found the deceased woman lying flat on her back..." (Morning Advertiser)

"Mr. Henry Llewellyn, surgeon, of 152, Whitechapel-road, stated that at 4 o'clock on Friday morning he was called by the last witness to Buck's-row. The officer told him what he was wanted for. On reaching Buck's-row he found..." (The Times)

Now no matter how much I look at this material, I find it very hard to see Llewellyn stating anywhere that he arrived in Bucks Row a few minutes before 4. Still you thank Jon for having drawn your attention to this purported fact.

After this display you write "Come into the light, man. Throw ego and obstinacy to the wind and just admit you're wrong."

Can you see why I find it hard to take your advice, no matter how well-meant it may be?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"Heh, and you are getting more and more desperate Christer."

Not at all - this is the first time ever that I have been stalked by a high-profile Ripperologist. I am going to enjoy every second of it.

I will admit that I am a bit surprised, though, if you will settle for that.

The best, Monty!
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hi Christer

Now no matter how much I look at this material, I find it very hard to see Llewellyn stating anywhere that he arrived in Bucks Row a few minutes before 4. Still you thank Jon for having drawn your attention to this purported fact.

I believe it was this fact that PC Neil stated at the inquest:

the witness said to him, "Here's a woman has cut her throat. Run at once for Dr. Llewellyn." He did so, and the witness seeing another constable pass along Baker's row, sent him for the ambulance. Dr. Llewellyn came in about ten minutes" Daily News Sept 3rd.

Pretty conclusive!!

[Fisherman]

Hi Jon!

Thanks for the contribution! The problem is that Curious writes about "the doctor's timing of arriving a few minutes before 4", and the doctor makes no such timing at all - on the contrary; HIS testimony puts any suggestion that he was in Buck´s Row some minutes before 4 to bed in rather an emphatic manner, if we were to go by that only.

And when you write about Neil, that this PC:s testimony is "pretty conclusive", I´m afraid that is not so. Of course, if Neil was correct and the time WAS 3.45 as he found Nichols, then you may have some sort of case - but not a clear-cut one by any means.

Let´s call upon Neil again, and hear what he said, as per the Daily Telegraph. He saw somebody lying in the street, and he claimed that this was around 3.45. Then what happens? Let´s see:

"I went across and found deceased lying outside a gateway, her head towards the east."

Must have taken some time, right? He would have approached her, directed the light of his lantern at her, and noticed the cut in her throat. The clock starts ticking.

"The gateway was closed."

Aha - he checked the Stable Yard Door. Would have taken some seconds too.

"It was about nine or ten feet high, and led to some stables. There were houses from the gateway eastward, and the School Board school occupies the westward. On the opposite side of the road is Essex Wharf. Deceased was lying lengthways along the street, her left hand touching the gate. I examined the body by the aid of my lamp, and noticed blood oozing from a wound in the throat. She was lying on her back, with her clothes disarranged. I felt her arm, which was quite warm from the joints upwards. Her eyes were wide open. Her bonnet was off and lying at her side, close to the left hand."

That´s a lot he took in ans did, right? And he must have checked her for signs of life first, though he does not say so. Otherwise, he would not have felt her for warmth, trying to establish if she was long dead. This would have taken some considerable time.

"I heard a constable passing Brady-street, so I called him. I did not whistle."

No, he used his lamp, something that Thain acknowledges. Therefore some seconds further went up in smoke as he did this and Thain saw him. Then Thain had 130 yards to walk down Buck´s Row. There goes another minute.

Over to Thain here, to establish that he did walk down Buck´s Row, and did not set off directly he saw the lantern:

"he was signalled by the flash of the lantern of another constable (Neale). He went to him, and found Neale standing by the body of the deceased, and witness was despatched for a doctor.

There! Now, back to Neil:

"I said to him, "Run at once for Dr. Llewellyn," and, seeing another constable in Baker's-row, I sent him for the ambulance."

So, after his 130 yard march, Thain was spoken to - there´s the "here´s a woman who has cut her throat" remark, I think - and then Neil instructs Thain to go for Llewellyn. Time passes!

So, Jon, if Neil was on the money and found Nichols at exactly 3.45, we still have to add a number of minutes before Thain set off. He did not set off as Neil found the body, did he?

Moving on, Neil says: "The doctor arrived in a very short time." Then he adds "I had, in the meantime, rung the bell at Essex Wharf, and asked if any disturbance had been heard. The reply was "No." Sergeant Kirby came after, and he knocked."

These are events that took place as Neil waited for Llewellyn. They too would have taken some time, interviewing the people around the murder site. But how long time are we talking about? Can Thain help out? Here´s what he said at the inquest:
"About ten minutes after he had fetched the surgeon he saw two workmen standing with Neale. He did not know who they were."

Could it be that it took not five but ten minutes for Llewellyn to get out of bed, be informed by Thain what had happened, return to his chambers and put his clothes on, and then accompany Thain back to the murder site? It sounds as if the two workmen were in place as Thain arrived with Llewellyn, and as if it had taken ten minutes or so to get the doctor clad and bring him in place. That´s as per the Telegraph, though. What does the Times say?
It says: "Witness ran for the doctor, and having called Dr. Llewellyn, accompanied him to the spot where deceased was lying. On his return with the doctor, Neil and two workmen were standing by the body. He did not know the workmen."

Does that not sound to you, Jon, as if it DID take ten minutes or thereabouts to get Llewellyn in place, from Thain´s knock on his door? Counting from the 3.45 find of the body by Neil, we can then get a (very) rough schedule: Finding 3.45, checking for life and checking the Stable Yard door, we arrive at, say, 3.46, signalling down Thain, having him walk down Buck´s Row, we arrive at 3.47, then add half a minute for information and other bits and pieces, and we have 3.47.30. Thain sets off, running - let´s say he took four minutes to reach the doctor´s lodgings, we then have 3.51.30. Then we add another ten minutes and we have Llewellyn in place at 4.01.30.

But that is only if we use the 3.45 time offered by Neil! It tallies not very well with Llewellyns statement that Thain arrived at 4, approximately. If we instead use Pauls timing, then we have to move things at least 4, perhaps 5 minutes further ahead. And if we do just that, and have Thain arriving 5 minutes later, then he stood at Llewellyns doorstep at 3.56.30, which is much more fourish. And then we would have Llewellyn in place at about 4.06.30. And the more we push him in this direction, the more it tallies with what the horse-slaughterers said.

I really don´t invest too much in Llewellyn being in place in Buck´s Row at some minutes before 4, for reasons outlined above, Jon. Nothing is written in stone, of course, as we deal with very uncertain and contradicting evidence - but this is how I see it.

And no matter what, we DON´T have the doctor himself stating that he was there before 4!

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Monty:

"Heh, and you are getting more and more desperate Christer."

Not at all - this is the first time ever that I have been stalked by a high-profile Ripperologist. I am going to enjoy every second of it.

I will admit that I am a bit surprised, though, if you will settle for that.

The best, Monty!
Fisherman

Oh Christer,

That is a very serious accusation, especially as you hounded me for weeks trying to get me to respond to your theory.

Please either retract that lie or make apologies for it. And make it swift.

Otherwise I shall have no alternative, for the sake of my reputation, to report such an unfounded accusation.

My best to you also Christer.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Okay, Monty, you are not stalking me - you have just said that you will always be there to add the balanced approach to things - like for example the name issue, where I follow a perfectly useful approach by saying that the name "Cross" is false.

That, Monty, made you say that I "mislead".

I can´t remember telling you to apologize for that.

I have over and over tried to make this a normal, functioning discussion - and have had it met by remarks from you telling me that I am getting desperate. That´s apparently okay.

Consider the "stalking" remark retracted. And if that is not enough for you, and if you are really feeling hurt, then I will happily offer an apology too, for good measure.

And after that, I will add that I hope that we will BOTH offer a decent discussion fortwith! The issue, and the issue only. No personal remarks, no insults, no questioning of each others backgrounds and merits. Just the case, nothing else.

If you can do that, then so can I.

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Christer,

My comments were in regards the post directly and not at you individually. If you were offended by them then I do apologise.

And thank you for the retraction.

Done, dusted, forgotten, onwards.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Good, Monty. Now let´s make some sort of progress instead of getting at each others throats!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Fisherman
Thain very likely called and retrieved his cape from the horse slaughterer’s yard on the way to get Llewellyn – further delay.
It seems very unlikely that Llewellyn got to Bucks Row before 4.10

Curious – you ain’t no Harriet Lilley believer – you are a Harriet Lilley snoozer conjecturer.