The Mizen scam

[FrankO]

So did the journalist write down a quick rough draft, then a formal version, then wire that in to the papers they worked for. Or did they just write a formal version (missing some text out) and wire that straight in, which saves the most time in the long run ?

Or have their editors changed the 3.30’s to ‘half past three’s etc.

Hi Mr Lucky,

What I wrote are only the musings of a layman of journalism , so I can't determine its proper value. I can only imagine that if I had been in that inquest room, I would have written down '3.30' or '3.20' instead of 'half past three' or 'twenty minutes past three'.

If I was a 'penny-a-liner' I would definitely be writing down ‘half past three’ and not 3.30, ha-ha

In that case, I might have added "o'clock in the morning", too .

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Hi all,

Could anybody let me know (preferably on a map) the exact location of Dr Llewellyn's residence? I have number 152 on the south side of Whitechapel Road and just west of the entrance to Baker's Row, but I'm far from sure.

Thanks in advance!
Frank

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Frank,

Sorry no map, but it was near the Brady Street corner, the Queen Head (actually on the corner) was 154

[Monty]

South side.


Monty

[Fisherman]

Frank:

"Since we can’t be sure at what time he left home exactly, I don’t think we can make such a call."

That is true. What I meant to point to is that given the timings we do have - correct or not - there at least seems to be a gap of time unaccounted for, no matter if we regard the man as a likely or an unlikely suspect. Established as such, though, it is of course not.

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

Medical evidence was given that Nicholls could have been dead as early as 3.30 am,so no ,we cannot deduce that she must have entered Bucks Row just previously to Cross.Allowing for the walk to the stables,and perhaps a couple of minutes alive in the killers company,she could have entered Bucks Row only a few minutes after the beat constable had passed through at 3.15.The last reported sighting of Nicholls,by Holland,was given as 2.30.From then on nothing,untill 3.45.Which is rather surprising given that if looking for customers one would have expected her to have kept to the more frequented highways,and if not,how was it that for at least one hour,she also evaded the beat constables.Well one explanatio,and I know I am going to be jumped on for mentioning it,is that she w as in Bucks Row much earlier than 3,15.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Christer

There is no such information, but for the possibility that Paul discerned life in Nichols when feeling her chest.

Her head was hanging off, there was no way she was alive when they attended to her.

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy:

"Her head was hanging off, there was no way she was alive when they attended to her."

Of course she was beyond any sort of saving, Jon. But as you may know, her heart coud have been beating for some considerable time after the cut, and technically I believe that would mean that she would have been dying if this was so - but not dead.
Llewellyn pointed out that the wounds to her abdomen wopuld also have been enough to kill, but killing is not like switching off the light. It takes time for life to expire.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

, but killing is not like switching off the light. It takes time for life to expire.

Absolutely, Christer, but in this instance the damage to Nichols was extreme and there`s no way her heart would still be beating with that loss of blood - how could it continue beating ?

[caz]

Hi Christer

Her head was hanging off, there was no way she was alive when they attended to her.

It was but a flesh wound, Jon.

And probably self-inflicted.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

I am invincible.

Hello Caroline. Not to mention, she was invincible.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

It was but a flesh wound, Jon.

And probably self-inflicted.

Indeed, Caz, I`ve always been impressed on how she popped that piece of mirror back in her pocket after mutilating herself.

Emily Holland did say she was a tidy girl...

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy:

"Absolutely, Christer, but in this instance the damage to Nichols was extreme and there`s no way her heart would still be beating with that loss of blood - how could it continue beating ?"

I think it was Sam Flynn who said in a post that the heart would go on beating for some significant time after a throat-cut. It would be more of a reflex. I don´t think the heart only pumps when there is something to pump.
As an aside, I can say that I have many times gutted fish and noticed that the heart, taken out a m inute or two earlier and disconnected from any blood veins was still beating in the kitchen sink. And that would not be due to any blood being about, Jon!

I imagine we are much the same when it comes to this department, but I am no medico, so I will leave it to others to delve deeper in the issue.

I see that some or the less serious posters are having a field day over the issue, but let´s give them soem time to read up too, and then we can get down to business afterwards. I will try and find some bolstering of what I suggested in this post and return with it!

All the best, Jon!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

And here we go:

"Two of appellants' experts, Dr. Loquvam, a forensic pathologist [261 Cal.App.2d 269] for Alameda County, and Dr. Lack, a pathologist for San Mateo County, thought that Patricia died instantly from an injury to her spinal cord, as evidenced by the mediastinal hemorrhage, and that the reflex pumping of her heart accounted for the congestion in her lungs. To them, the gasping breaths, moans and head moving phenomena reported by Wilcox were typical post-mortem reflex movements rather than indications of life. However, they agreed that nothing in the autopsy reports was inconsistent with Patricia's breathing and being alive for 10-15 minutes after the accident.

Dr. Myers testified that Patricia could not have performed any appreciable breathing after the impact. To him, the heaviness of Patricia's lungs was not inconsistent with her instantaneous death. Dr. Morrell, a neurologist, agreed with this interpretation of the pulmonary congestion. In Dr. Morrell's opinion, the pulse rate reported by Mr. Wilcox was not sufficient to sustain life. However, Dr. Myers and Dr. Morrell both agreed that there was no crucial evidence in the autopsy reports inconsistent with Patricia's survival for 15 minutes after the impact. Also, both agreed that the gasping and breathing reported by the Wilcoxes were consistent with life, but interpreted them as post-mortem reflex or release actions."

So, a technically dead woman showed reflex signs of life for up to fifteen minutes, one of them being the heart pumping on, so much so as to congest her lungs with blood.

And this is what i am speaking of in the Nichols case - although she would be beyond any help, her heart could still have been pounding away for a very substantial amount of time. If the clipping I post here is anything to go by, there would even be time for a Mr X to kill her, for Lechmere to find her, and for Paul to feel a twitching of her heart, if that is any comfort.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Many thanks for that, Christer.

However, the woman in that instance died instantly from an injury to her spinal cord. No loss of blood -which is the key issue here.

Nichols lost most of her blood, therefore there was no pressure to make the heart pump.

Any observations from others would be interesting here, as we no doubt, will agree to disagree on this one.

The key issue here is whether the heart would still beat at least a minute or two after there has been a massive and sudden loss of blood (not mentioning the abdominal mutilations).

Can`t explain those fishes hearts still beating in the kitchen sink, though.
Perhaps, you are a naturally gifted surgeon. ;-)