The Mizen scam

[Mr Lucky]

CrossMere was a few feet from Polly's body , when Paul came walking up that very same side where Polly lay . Then assuming a possible mugging on himself , Paul steps off the left hand kerb into the road attempting to navigate his way around CrossMere who is now closer to the left hand side kerb, looking at Polly in the stable entrance .

Hi Moonbegger

Sorry, neither Cross or Paul was on the left-hand side of the road.

‘ as he was walking on the right hand side of Buck's-row he saw something lying on the other side of the road. ’ - Woodford times 7th Sept. 1888

The wool warehouse is not on the left hand side either -

‘When he got near the gateway of the wool warehouse in bucks row, at about quarter to four, he saw a figure of a woman on the opposite side of the road.’ - The Birmingham Daily Post 4th Sept. 1888

Both Cross and Paul were on the same side of the road, Cross waited for Paul, they then both went to the body together -

'At the same time he heard a man coming up the street, in the same direction, and on the same side of the road as himself.' - Woodford times 7th Sept. 1888

‘At the same time I heard a man coming up the street in the same direction as I had done, so I waited for him to come up. When he came up, I said, "Come and look over here; there is a woman." We then both went over to the body.’ - Evening Standard 4th Sept. 1888

Hope that's of some help for you

[FrankO]

Hi Moonbegger,

In addition to Mr Lucky's examples, there's also the Evening Standard of 18 September:

"Robert Paul, Forster street, Whitechapel, said - I am a carman, and on the morning of the murder I left home just before a quarter to four. As I was passing up Buck's row I saw a man standing in the roadway, When I got close to him, he said, "Come and look at this woman;" and together we went across the road. "

All the best,
Frank

[Lechmere]

Moonbeggar
Oh well here goes.

Paul is walking down the right pavement as that is the only natural thing for him to do, given the location of his house and the direction he will take at the end of the road – and he is late for work and keen to take the shortest distance from A to B. – rather than meander aimlessly down the road.
He sees someone about 40 yards ahead of him and towards the other side of the road. As he continues this person comes towards him, saying nothing.
Paul gets alarmed as he thinks this person is about to rob him. Incidentally this implies to me that Paul felt intimidated by the manner in which this person approached him. This person starts to block Paul’s approach so Paul steps into the road and goes to walk around him to avoid him.
The two people effectively cross in front of each other and as Paul passes him the other man touches him on his shoulder and for the first time spoke:
“Come and look at this woman.”
Pau then followed the man over and saw the body of a woman.

If you read the various accounts Moonbeggar, that is what happened.
It is quite clear.
Paul stepped off the pavement to avoid the person we now know was called Chares Lechmere as he thought he was about to be mugged. He was at that moment totally unaware that Polly Nichols body was lying on the opposite pavement and some yards further ahead.
Lechmere would have tapped Paul on his right shoulder. If it was said ‘left’ in a previous post then that was an error.

The police will have got the alternative version of events from Lechmere first – not from Pal as they will not have tracked Paul down for some time after the appearance of his story on Sunday 2nd September.
Why didn’t Paul suspect Lechmere?
I would say that he was manipulated by him. My reading of the various accounts made by Paul paint an unflattering picture of him. I think Lechmere dominated him and led him in the touching of Polly. Then he made sure he walked with Paul all the way to Paul’s work – no doubt talking about things and making sure Paul didn’t suspect him.
Paul in is newspaper interview thought Polly must have been there a considerable time and that she may well have been murdered elsewhere, and that she was obviously dead due to the nature of her injuries.
In my opinion he took all these things from newspaper accounts he had already read by the time he gave his interview on the evening of Friday 31st August.
This shows that Paul had a very ‘suggestible’ personality.
By the time Paul was dragged out of bed and was interviewed by the police the case had already moved on with the Chapman murder.
If Cross/Lechmere was the killer, then he would have been a psychopath. Such people are skilled at manipulating people and mirroring emotions. They tend to be very controlling. These characteristics make it relatively easy for them to pull the wool over ‘normal’ people’s eyes.
People think such killers are mad. Indeed they are but not the frothing at the mouth sort of madness. It is a different and far more sinister form of madness that compels these sorts of serial killers to kill. People still fail to recognise this. They think that a seemingly normal guy could never have done it.
The history of serial killing should tell us that the culprit normally conforms to the pattern I have outlined.

[Lechmere]

Bridewell

The report said -
“Standing where the woman was”

Which I translated as -
“Found over a Ripper victim”.

Big difference.
As a line of criticism I have to say that is somewhat desperate.

[moonbegger]

Lechmere ,

Like i have already explained ,

"When CrossMere first became aware of the approaching paul , Yes he ( CrossMere ) was on the same side of the street as Paul ..
CrossMere was a few feet from Polly's body , when Paul came walking up that very same side where Polly lay . Then assuming a possible mugging on himself , Paul steps off the left hand kerb into the road attempting to navigate his way around CrossMere who is now closer to the left hand side kerb, looking at Polly in the stable entrance "

With all due respect Lechmere , if you are struggling to put together the actual known documented facts , Facts that are pin pointed by the people who were on the scene at the time , and knew exactly where they were ..
Then how do you expect anyone to follow you when you dive beneath the dark waters of conjecture ..

The fact that you cant see this scenario playing out just how the witnesses said it did is beyond me ..

So how does the scene according to (Team Lechmere play out) ?

1) Paul and CrossMere both on right kerb .. paul a little behind .

2) Crossmere walks into middle ..then a step or two further left to see Polly.

( Question ? Why would Paul feel the need to step off the safety of the kerb and squeeze him self between CrossMere and Polly ? as according to you he would have had to .. )

3) CrossMere taps him on the left shoulder ..

( Question ? ) According to your chain of events .. Why does CrossMere reach past Pauls Right shoulder to tap his left one ? )

And yes Lechmere ( poster ) these ARE all questions , the fact that you refuse to answer them doesn't render them rhetorical .. just like all the great questions thet CAZ asks . But my main beef question .. let me try it again ..

Question ? Why if Paul , FIRST saw CrossMere Leaning over Pollys body ,
( as you suggest ) Why didn't he Suspect him as the killer or at the very least say so to the police ?

I actually suspect Pauls Lloyds press rant and the fact it was reported that he saw a man standing where the body was , was actually the reason the police dragged him out of bed .. At which point they got the whole story and not just the sensational press version .

moonbegger.

People , read up on the WITNESS inquest statements . not the press !

[Lechmere]

Lynn regarding your minor point...

“Suppose that Cross never said a word to anyone after the episode with Mizen. Paul is questioned and he indicates another person at the scene. How would the police have found Cross?
“You mention they could have looked for him on the way to work. But did you not claim that there was a shorter route possible? Had he substituted the shorter route subsequently, then, absent a name, workplace, etc. would not, say, a chance encounter with Mizen or Paul have been remote? But then there would be no identification.”

The shorter route wasn’t very far from the longer route. A couple of streets south. A police dragnet would not have to be cast very wide to find him. This is a non starter as a line of argument.

[Mr Lucky]

People , read up on the WITNESS inquest statements . not the press !

The witness inquest statements are in the press! where are you getting yours from?

[moonbegger]

Moonbeggar
Oh well here goes.

Paul is walking down the right pavement as that is the only natural thing for him to do, given the location of his house and the direction he will take at the end of the road – and he is late for work and keen to take the shortest distance from A to B. – rather than meander aimlessly down the road.
He sees someone about 40 yards ahead of him and towards the other side of the road. As he continues this person comes towards him, saying nothing.
Paul gets alarmed as he thinks this person is about to rob him. Incidentally this implies to me that Paul felt intimidated by the manner in which this person approached him. This person starts to block Paul’s approach so Paul steps into the road and goes to walk around him to avoid him.
The two people effectively cross in front of each other and as Paul passes him the other man touches him on his shoulder and for the first time spoke:
“Come and look at this woman.”
Pau then followed the man over and saw the body of a woman.

If you read the various accounts Moonbeggar, that is what happened.
It is quite clear.
Paul stepped off the pavement to avoid the person we now know was called Chares Lechmere as he thought he was about to be mugged. He was at that moment totally unaware that Polly Nichols body was lying on the opposite pavement and some yards further ahead.
Lechmere would have tapped Paul on his right shoulder. If it was said ‘left’ in a previous post then that was an error.

The police will have got the alternative version of events from Lechmere first – not from Pal as they will not have tracked Paul down for some time after the appearance of his story on Sunday 2nd September.
Why didn’t Paul suspect Lechmere?
I would say that he was manipulated by him. My reading of the various accounts made by Paul paint an unflattering picture of him. I think Lechmere dominated him and led him in the touching of Polly. Then he made sure he walked with Paul all the way to Paul’s work – no doubt talking about things and making sure Paul didn’t suspect him.
Paul in is newspaper interview thought Polly must have been there a considerable time and that she may well have been murdered elsewhere, and that she was obviously dead due to the nature of her injuries.
In my opinion he took all these things from newspaper accounts he had already read by the time he gave his interview on the evening of Friday 31st August.
This shows that Paul had a very ‘suggestible’ personality.
By the time Paul was dragged out of bed and was interviewed by the police the case had already moved on with the Chapman murder.
If Cross/Lechmere was the killer, then he would have been a psychopath. Such people are skilled at manipulating people and mirroring emotions. They tend to be very controlling. These characteristics make it relatively easy for them to pull the wool over ‘normal’ people’s eyes.
People think such killers are mad. Indeed they are but not the frothing at the mouth sort of madness. It is a different and far more sinister form of madness that compels these sorts of serial killers to kill. People still fail to recognise this. They think that a seemingly normal guy could never have done it.
The history of serial killing should tell us that the culprit normally conforms to the pattern I have outlined.

LechMere ,

OK , So Where do you get , CrossMere " approached him " from , and "blocked his path" ?

"Incidentally this implies to me that Paul felt intimidated by the manner in which this person approached him. This person starts to block Paul’s approach so Paul steps into the road and goes to walk around him to avoid him"

Cheers ,

moonbegger .

[lynn cates]

worth it?

Hello Lechmere. Thanks. But would the Yard REALLY have considered another witness (besides Paul) worth a dragnet?

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger

Sorry, neither Cross or Paul was on the left-hand side of the road.

‘ as he was walking on the right hand side of Buck's-row he saw something lying on the other side of the road. ’ - Woodford times 7th Sept. 1888

The wool warehouse is not on the left hand side either -

‘When he got near the gateway of the wool warehouse in bucks row, at about quarter to four, he saw a figure of a woman on the opposite side of the road.’ - The Birmingham Daily Post 4th Sept. 1888

Both Cross and Paul were on the same side of the road, Cross waited for Paul, they then both went to the body together -

'At the same time he heard a man coming up the street, in the same direction, and on the same side of the road as himself.' - Woodford times 7th Sept. 1888

‘At the same time I heard a man coming up the street in the same direction as I had done, so I waited for him to come up. When he came up, I said, "Come and look over here; there is a woman." We then both went over to the body.’ - Evening Standard 4th Sept. 1888

Hope that's of some help for you

Mr Lucky ,

Here we go again

"When CrossMere first became aware of the approaching paul , Yes he ( CrossMere ) was on the same side of the street as Paul ..
CrossMere was a few feet from Polly's body , when Paul came walking up that very same side where Polly lay . Then assuming a possible mugging on himself , Paul steps off the left hand kerb into the road attempting to navigate his way around CrossMere who is now closer to the left hand side kerb, looking at Polly in the stable entrance "

does it not add up ?

moonbegger.

[moonbegger]

Morning All

Ok so here's the thing , I think my main point of contention has been buried beneath all the Left , right malarkey .. it really doesn't matter what side of the road , and who was on it . Ruby made the best point with the LSD

As i said at the start , IF the first time Paul saw CrossMere in Bucks Row , he was over polly's body . There may be a case to answer .

But in actual fact , as many have posted on here .. He WAS in the middle of the road .. 40 yards ahead of Paul .. If he killed her he would have been off down the road ..

cheers

moonbegger.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=moonbegger;229440]Morning All

EEEEEEEEk ! (Good morning to you)

.

Ruby made the best point with the LSD

You're not going to have me 'tripping' over my breakfast are you ?

.

. it really doesn't matter what side of the road , and who was on it

Ah, we can all go home then.

[moonbegger]

Moonbeggar
Oh well here goes.

Paul is walking down the right pavement as that is the only natural thing for him to do, given the location of his house and the direction he will take at the end of the road – and he is late for work and keen to take the shortest distance from A to B. – rather than meander aimlessly down the road.
He sees someone about 40 yards ahead of him and towards the other side of the road. As he continues this person comes towards him, saying nothing.
Paul gets alarmed as he thinks this person is about to rob him. Incidentally this implies to me that Paul felt intimidated by the manner in which this person approached him. This person starts to block Paul’s approach so Paul steps into the road and goes to walk around him to avoid him.
The two people effectively cross in front of each other and as Paul passes him the other man touches him on his shoulder and for the first time spoke:
“Come and look at this woman.”
Pau then followed the man over and saw the body of a woman.

If you read the various accounts Moonbeggar, that is what happened.
It is quite clear.
Paul stepped off the pavement to avoid the person we now know was called Chares Lechmere as he thought he was about to be mugged. He was at that moment totally unaware that Polly Nichols body was lying on the opposite pavement and some yards further ahead.
Lechmere would have tapped Paul on his right shoulder. If it was said ‘left’ in a previous post then that was an error.

The police will have got the alternative version of events from Lechmere first – not from Pal as they will not have tracked Paul down for some time after the appearance of his story on Sunday 2nd September.
Why didn’t Paul suspect Lechmere?
I would say that he was manipulated by him. My reading of the various accounts made by Paul paint an unflattering picture of him. I think Lechmere dominated him and led him in the touching of Polly. Then he made sure he walked with Paul all the way to Paul’s work – no doubt talking about things and making sure Paul didn’t suspect him.
Paul in is newspaper interview thought Polly must have been there a considerable time and that she may well have been murdered elsewhere, and that she was obviously dead due to the nature of her injuries.
In my opinion he took all these things from newspaper accounts he had already read by the time he gave his interview on the evening of Friday 31st August.
This shows that Paul had a very ‘suggestible’ personality.
By the time Paul was dragged out of bed and was interviewed by the police the case had already moved on with the Chapman murder.
If Cross/Lechmere was the killer, then he would have been a psychopath. Such people are skilled at manipulating people and mirroring emotions. They tend to be very controlling. These characteristics make it relatively easy for them to pull the wool over ‘normal’ people’s eyes.
People think such killers are mad. Indeed they are but not the frothing at the mouth sort of madness. It is a different and far more sinister form of madness that compels these sorts of serial killers to kill. People still fail to recognise this. They think that a seemingly normal guy could never have done it.
The history of serial killing should tell us that the culprit normally conforms to the pattern I have outlined.

I will concede Lechmere .. your Chain of events regarding the ( who was where malarkey ) does sit better than mine

But that still leaves CrossMere in the middle of the street .. albeit a very narrow street .

moonbegger .

[Rubyretro]

But that still leaves CrossMere in the middle of the street .. albeit a very narrow street .

An exceedingly narrow street.

[moonbegger]

[QUOTE=Rubyretro;229441]

Morning All

EEEEEEEEk ! (Good morning to you)

.

You're not going to have me 'tripping' over my breakfast are you ?

.

Ah, we can all go home then.

Yes indeed Retro ,

Pack up your troubles in your ol kit bag , and smile , smile , smile !

Moonbegger .