The Mizen scam

[Bridewell]

Times

I have been trying to find the time that Lechmere thinks that Cross and Paul left home, and lay my hand on it quickly...( ?)

Quote:
Mrs Harriet Lilley of Bucks Row had a restless night`s sleep and reported hearing at around 03.30 am ( she fixed the time by a luggage train that passed her house ) the sounds of a moan and gasps, followed by whispers.

I've seen the time '3.45' bandied about the archive, but Cross at the inquest said that he left home 'about' 3.30 am...give it a bit earlier, and the sounds to be heard by Mrs Lilley after the train had passed, and it it is quite compelling...

I'm surprised that Lechmere hasn't tried to hammer home this point before...this is the sort of thing that convinces me...

I remember the real distances involved from having visited the place....they are terribly short...

Hi Ruby,
According to The Times report:
Cross, in his inquest testimony says "he left home on Friday morning at 20 minutes past 3".
Paul, in his inquest testimony, says, "he left home about a quarter to 4 on Friday morning".
Did Cross live 25 minutes walk further from Bucks Row than Paul? I seem to recall either Lechmere or Fisherman (perhaps both) suggesting that Cross has something like 15 minutes which can't be accounted for by a straightforward walk to work. (Apologies to Lechmere & Fisherman if I haven't got that quite right).
The moaners / gaspers / whisperers seems likely to be:
Polly & her killer
Two killers
Cross & Paul.
I'm left wondering how Mrs Lilley "fixed the time by a luggage train that passed her house". Does that suggest that a train passed at that time every night?

Regards, Bridewell.

[IchabodCrane]

[QUOTE=Rubyretro;229518]

I would translate that as meaning 'Just then they heard a policeman coming' ?

(at that moment they earwigged a rozzer arriving ?)


Um, presumably they had left Buck's Row before Neil got to it ?

Hi Ruby,
that was the point I was trying to make: if they heard a policeman coming, it could only have been Neil, and as he was approaching from the direction they were heading, why didn't they run into him?
To me it makes a big difference to the whole case, because the statement 'heard a policeman coming' seemingly contradicts Cross' later statement re:Mizen that he had no means of knowing whether a police officer was in Buck's Row or not.
Cheers,
Ichabod

[Rubyretro]

All I meant was that the home address of the man who discovered Nichols was as much an identifier of the man as giving the surname he was ordinarily known by. I submit that if I were to give my name as Caroline Alice Floozie of 13 Letsby Avenue, secret lap dancer, it wouldn't matter if my husband couldn't read, because it would be blindingly obvious to anyone who knew us at that address that I was that lap dancer, whether I was known as Caroline Alice Floozie, Caroline Alice Fortescue-Smythe or Caroline Alice Morris, and word could just as easily get back to hubby in any case.

Well, it's an entertaining post, and you made me laugh, Caz.

However, I can very well see the logic in the killer giving a 'half truth' in order to slip through the net .

If Lechmere (the suspect) had given the name Charles Allen Himbo or the Rt Hon Charlie Titmuss-Thynne, and a false address to boot, then I think that he would have risked hanging if questions were asked and things had gone against him.

Obviously no innocent person would give a false name and address to the inquest, or avoid the inquest altogether.

Why not give a 'real' name ?

Well, presumably whoever the Ripper was, he didn't live in a vacuum. The people around him would know what hours and times that he was in and out, and might give him away in all innocence and ignorance, if questioned, if they didn't know what they were protecting. It would be best if they weren't involved.

Giving a 'half truth' and appearing open would cover his options for a defence.

You're an intelligent woman -I'd opt for that route in the circumstances, wouldn't you ?

[Sally]

Hi Caz

More than this, Sally, I see very little chance of nobody noticing the name change at the time and remarking upon it, if he was always Lechmere at home and at work. If it took later researchers to discover from official records that Lechmere was his real name, surely that's a fair indication that he was Cross to those who knew him, when giving the police that name in 1888, and nobody knew any different.

Exactly. The assumption made here has been that the name he used on official documents - administrative documents - must have been the name he referred to himself by in everyday life. That doesn't automatically follow. The premise that Cross was 'really' Lechmere and used a 'false' name to disguise his identity cannot be made to fit with the other known facts regarding his identity - such as his address and workplace, about which he appears to have been quite open - without forcing the issue or resorting to special pleading. When that happens it usually indicates that something is wrong with the hypothesis.

So if he kills Nichols and wants to remain free to kill again, first he hangs around the scene for no good reason and is forced to excuse his presence to Paul and then PC Mizen, and then he comes forward to volunteer identifying details that he initially got away without having to supply.

Its counterintuitive, I think.

I really don't get it - unless he had a peg leg and was 7 foot 6.

In which case he was really Fleming and we can all go home - case solved!

[moonbegger]

An exceedingly narrow street.

Hello Retro ,

But not Narrow enough to place CrossMere over Polly's body from the middle of the road ..

I have just uploaded some pic's i took in the Mid 80's .. even the original Essex Wharf building .. We may get a little better perspective of width , especially in the last pic .

cheers

moonbegger

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Bridewell;229526]Hi Ruby,
According to The Times report:
Cross, in his inquest testimony says "he left home on Friday morning at 20 minutes past 3".
Paul, in his inquest testimony, says, "he left home about a quarter to 4 on Friday morning".



Your post is very interesting, Colin...(answered in reverse)

I'm left wondering how Mrs Lilley "fixed the time by a luggage train that
passed her house". Does that suggest that a train passed at that time every night?

Obviously, it does. One could not 'fix the time' by something that wasn't regular.

Cross & Paul.

If we're going by evidence and not supposition here, then the two people that we know for sure who were conversing in the street in this time line were Cross and Paul

Two killers

You don't really believe that do you ?

Polly & her killer

The moans and gasps came first, and then the whispers.

You're right that the killer could have chatted to a dying Polly -I would have thought that the limited conversation wasn't inspiring, but then I'm not a bloke ??
[QUOTE]

Did Cross live 25 minutes walk further from Bucks Row than Paul? I seem to recall either Lechmere or Fisherman (perhaps both) suggesting that Cross has something like 15 minutes which can't be accounted for by a straightforward walk to work. (Apologies to Lechmere & Fisherman if I haven't got that quite right).

I can see Cross's route in my mind's eye..I'd walk it in 10 minutes in heels.

[Rubyretro]

Hello Retro ,

But not Narrow enough to place CrossMere over Polly's body from the middle of the road ..

I have just uploaded some pic's i took in the Mid 80's .. even the original Essex Wharf building .. We may get a little better perspective of width , especially in the last pic .

cheers

moonbegger

Well, where are they then ??? (I am genuinely interested).

[moonbegger]

I uploaded them to the East End photo's thread ..

moonbegger .

[IchabodCrane]

'Just then they heard a policeman coming'

... the more I think about it, the more puzzling it becomes:
- How would one know by the sound of footsteps that a policeman is coming, as opposed to a random person wearing heavy boots?
- "We just found this possibly dead woman, we are hearing a policeman coming, let's get going we will be late for work. Maybe on the way we will meet another policeman whom we can tell to come down here."
- "I heard a policeman coming when I was in Buck's Row standing beside the dead woman, but I wouldn't know whether a policeman is there now (four minutes later)"

My guess is that the Daily Telegraph journalist just got it mixed up from what was said at the inquest, and it was never stated like that during the proceedings. But would this journalist have imagined that people in the 21st century, sitting in front of their notebooks, are still puzzling over what he wrote that day?

[curious]

...But would this journalist have imagined that people in the 21st century, sitting in front of their notebooks, are still puzzling over what he wrote that day?

People from all over the world, connected by computer puzzling over what he wrote. Nope, the journalist could not have even started to imagine this. . .

50 years ago, people could not have imagined this. In my lifetime, people could never have imagined this . . .

amazing, actually

[Supe]

Ichabod,

How would one know by the sound of footsteps that a policeman is coming, as opposed to a random person wearing heavy boots?

I would think the steady, rhythmic, 2.5-miles-to-the-hour tread of a Bobby on the beat was a sound quite familiar to those in London in the LVP. Sure, it could have been someone --intentionally or accidentally -- imitating a patrolling constable, but was most likely a policeman.

Don.

[Rubyretro]

Ichabod,

How would one know by the sound of footsteps that a policeman is coming, as opposed to a random person wearing heavy boots?

I would think the steady, rhythmic, 2.5-miles-to-the-hour tread of a Bobby on the beat was a sound quite familiar to those in London in the LVP. Sure, it could have been someone --intentionally or accidentally -- imitating a patrolling constable, but was most likely a policeman.

Don.

Supe -I was just about to answer the same thing as you -good job that I read your post first, eh ?

[IchabodCrane]

Ichabod,

How would one know by the sound of footsteps that a policeman is coming, as opposed to a random person wearing heavy boots?

I would think the steady, rhythmic, 2.5-miles-to-the-hour tread of a Bobby on the beat was a sound quite familiar to those in London in the LVP. Sure, it could have been someone --intentionally or accidentally -- imitating a patrolling constable, but was most likely a policeman.

Don.

Hi Don,
could be that the sound was distinctive, but if what was written in the Daily Telegraph about them hearing a bobby approaching was actually what Cross said at the inquest, that would raise the even more difficult question: if they heard him, he must have been close, and they went in his direction, how come they didn't bump into him? Or was it a lie?
Cheers
Ichabod

[Supe]

Ichabod,

Or was it a lie?

I don't really care to play the game. You asked a question and I think I answered it reasonably -- there was a distinctive sound to the tread of a Bobby on his beat. It is remarked upon throughout LVP literature. Whether it actually applied here or was all fantasy I could not care less at this point.

Don.

[Rubyretro]

Hmmmn, Ichabod...it suggests that they didn't want to meet him ?