The Mizen scam

[lynn cates]

addressing teh situation

Hello Christer. Thanks. I hope you don't feel offended.

Frankly, I don't place much weight on locations and addresses. I suppose I might change my view if I could swallow Freud, or the FBI, or CSI, but I cannot.

But if something new appears . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

Moonbeggar
The witness (or as some might have it no 1 suspect) known as Charles Allen Cross gave his address as 22 Doveton Street and his occupation as carman.
We know that Charles Allen Lechmere moved in to 22 Doveton Street in mid June 1888 and he was a carman. We also know that he had a step father called Thomas Cross who died 17 years before.
It is beyond doubt that Charles Cross and Charles Lechmere are one and the same.

Mr Lucky
I am sure that Dew couldn't remember his name which is why he put a dash. I find that interesting in itself.

Bridewell
You are probably correct that Mizen was lazy - lucky for Cross. Although he may have considered himself unlucky to bump into Mizen at that junction.

Wickerman
Do you know of any other witness in this case who was allowed to use an alias to hide their identity for fear of attack?
And even if it were the case that Cross was allowed to use this name to protect himself, then it is more than probable that the confidential police records would have mentioned this.
If you mean that maybe Cross had private fears and that privately motivated him to give a false name, then I should have thought he wouldn't have given his address nor place of work.
Do you know of any reports that imply people in this case were frightened to give their names in case the culprit attacked them?

Lynn
I hope you employ the same degree of scepticism and denial of conjecture for your JI theory - and I hope you don't ignore any inconvenient reports that could clear JI.

[Abby Normal]

Abbey
Yes I can see that proposing that Cross was lying about going to work at that time could help the case against him - but I prefer to build the case by using every item of recorded information and going with that rather than ignoring inconventient information or making the culprit lie when it isn't necessary for the case. Part of the strength of the Cross/Lechmere case is that it does not ignore a single piece of evidence.

FrankO
The whole point of Lechmere using Cross as an alias was that he could come up with a **** and bull story to explain his use if it if push came to shove while at the same time it provided distance. The distance he needed was so that his wife did not suspect him, so he could carry on.
The proof of the pudding is that it seems clear that his house was not visited and neither was his workplace. He passed through the case unnoted. And remained unnoted by generations of Ripperologists even though he was always there in plain sight.
You may wish to rework what Mizen actually heard Cross say. But as I indicated to Abbey (above) - I will stick to what Mizen claims was actually said and go with that.
Cross makes it clear that he took the lead role in talking to Mizen. Paul in his inquest testimony didn't big up his role but in his nespaper interview he did. That says much about Paul's character.

Hi Lech

but I prefer to build the case by using every item of recorded information and going with that rather than ignoring inconventient information or making the culprit lie when it isn't necessary for the case. Part of the strength of the Cross/Lechmere case is that it does not ignore a single piece of evidence.

But my idea does not either. Actually you provided the evidence(possibly)- that Lech was not actually working that day but acting like he was when you show that eventhough he was supposedly late for work he takes a route after Mizen and with Paul that would make him tardy another "five minutes". Now why would a person who is supposedly late do that? I say because he was perhaps not really late (nor expected at work at all).

[lynn cates]

to see or not to see

Hello Lechmere. Thanks. If there is any genuine exonerating evidence, I'd love to see it.

Nothing in the file beyond 19 or 20 September. Odd.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Abby:

"On the other hand I think you and Fish were too quick to blow off my idea that lech ws NOT on his way to work but used it as cover and to free up his time to do his thing and avoid the risk of gettng caught showing up at work with incrminating evidence. I think its an idea that only helps your cause and should be further checked up on."

I am not saying this could not be the way you would have it, Abby. I am just saying that the timings of the Tabram deed and the Nichol´s ditto, plus potentially also the Kelly deed, actually all tally with the time he went to work. And it would be easier to keep things under wrap if he used this opportunity, just as it would be strange if he gave away that he was a carman if he did not have to.
All in all, you may be right, but if he did not work on the days involved, somebody - like his wife or employer - could perhaps have thought it odd that somebody died each and every time Lechmere was on leave.

All the best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish (and Lech)

I am just saying that the timings of the Tabram deed and the Nichol´s ditto, plus potentially also the Kelly deed, actually all tally with the time he went to work.

And would tally when he would fake going to work. If he was usng this ruse then obviously he would leave home for (fake) "work" at the times when he really did leave for work!

but if he did not work on the days involved, somebody - like his wife or employer - could perhaps have thought it odd that somebody died each and every time Lechmere was on leave.

Not his wife-because she would have thought he was at work.
Re his employer-not each and every time because I doubt he would have been able to get a kill "each and every time" he was off.

I have a question for you and Lech: Do you know when Carmen were typically off? Were they typically off on weekends and holidays? Did not the murders happen on weekends and holidays?


All in all, you may be right,

Fish, I think I might have this framed. Ha Ha

[Abby Normal]

Fish, Lech

As I have mentioned several times before-Maybe my idea is possible for further research-i.e would it be possible to research work recordes from Pickfords to see when Lech was off? know its a long shot but what if it could be found that he was off on the days of the murders. Would be quite a coincidence.

Probably impossible to find out-but just a thought.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom. Thanks. I agree that Cross is, well, no worse than Toppy.

Thanks for the kind words about JI. I hope to get some answers soon.

Don't mention it. But just for the record, I said Cross was a better suspect than Grainger, not Hutch. I don't know for a fact that Hutch and Toppy are one in the same, so when I speak of Hutch I speak of the young man who stood in front of Mary Kelly's door, and then her court, on the same night she was butchered. I think THAT guy is a better suspect than Cross, though I must admit I'm dumbfounded how he remains such a primary suspect on the boards based on so very little.

But regarding JI, I think if you could sell someone on Eddowes having been felled by a different hand then Chapman, then you could sell them on JI as the murderer of Polly and Annie. But I gotta tell you, that'd be a very hard sell from where I'm sitting. As it stands now, I've gotta go with Chapman and Eddowes having been killed by the same person.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Kate

Hello Tom. Thanks. Funny you should mention that. Just finished another essay, and trying to do just that.

Better not highjack Christer's thread, though.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi Moonbegger,
Just a quickie.
I did state that the killer missed a month, meaning the 30TH Sept led to the 9TH day of November.[39]
Regards Richard,

[richardnunweek]

Bridewell,
How did Cross[know Tabram?
If he was 38/39, and she was the same age , and they both frequented the same pubs ...why not?
Also do we really know Ada Wilson's age?
In all references in books dating right back, she was always referred to 39.
Regards Richard.

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

" I hope you don't feel offended."

I would rather call it disappointed - and enlightened. Since logic dictates that the triumvirate of the scam, the name swop and the Cable Street address are all potentially very damning clues visavi Lechmere, whereas wearing a black moustace would not be in the least so, my disappointment lies in your decision not to recognize this, whereas my enlightenment rest on the very same thing. If somebody is that determined to play down valuable evidence, the you are onto something very useful.

But then again, I already knew that.

The best, Lynn. And good luck with your pork butcher!

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Abby:

" Do you know when Carmen were typically off? Were they typically off on weekends and holidays? Did not the murders happen on weekends and holidays?"

They were not typically off. They typically worked, Abby. In Henry Mayhews book "London Labour and the London Poor" (I am not sure if I remember the name of the book correctly), he writes that carmen put in fifteen, sixteen hours of work per day, and that they sometimes even worked Sundays! They were the perhaps hardest working employees in London. Apart from that, the conditions may of course have varied somewhat inbetween companies, inbetween employees and so on. The normal working week for a labourer was Monday to Saturday, having the Sunday off, and it would seem that the carmen answered to that description - at least.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

" when I speak of Hutch I speak of the young man who stood in front of Mary Kelly's door, and then her court, on the same night she was butchered."

When I speak of Hutch I speak of the young man who stood in front of Crossingham´s, and then walked up Mary Kellys court, on the night before she was butchered.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

Frankly, I don't place much weight on locations and addresses. I suppose I might change my view if I could swallow Freud, or the FBI, or CSI, but I cannot.

Sounds most uncomfortable Lynn - I wouldn't recommend it

P.S. (although off topic, sorry Fish et al.) Lynn, if the C5+ or - Tabram were killed by the same hand, maybe we simply need another mad pork butcher?

[Lechmere]

Abbey
I have tried and I do not believe that Pickfords have kept work records from that period. Private firms tend not to invest resources in keeping such archives!
As for carmen's typical days off - again that is difficult to know at this remove. As difficult in establishing whether an average individual was known locally by a nickname or had a bad temper or was prone to carry knives (that wasn't meant for you by the way!)
However Saturdays were normal work days. Workers were granted very very few days holiday.
Every attack except the double event happened at a time when he would normally have been on his way to work or perhaps during his first couple of early morning jobs. This includes the 'Bank Holiday' attacks which occurred in the early hours of the following morning - i.e. actually on a work day.
Incidentally the Lords Mayor's Parade was not a public holiday.