The Mizen scam

[Bridewell]

Stupid Question

Fisherman ,

Ok , so here is Stupid question time , and i apologize if this is obvious to all but me ! But as you clearly point out ..

"A/ He signed himself Lehmere habitually
B/ He married as Lechmere
C/ He named his kids Lechmere"

So this chap is Lechmere ( baring in mind he that he was briefly and coincidentally called Cross when he was seven ) the Fella who discovered Polly was Cross .. Is it ridiculous to assume that they were two different people ( Literally )

"The 1891 census, however, notes that a Charles Cross was married, aged 45 employed as a labourer, and born at “Cambridge West Beach and lived on the whitechapel rd .. ( it also goes on to say )
Charles Cross has not been identified in other census records because there are so many people with that name that it has proved impossible, so far, to positively identify the correct man"

So how can we be certain that Cross and Lechmere are in fact , one and the same person ? if as you say there is no record of Lechmere using the name Cross ..

Like i said probably a stupid question

cheers ,

moonbegger .

Hi MB,

This is not a stupid question! You make a very good point, although I suspect that an answer is being prepared as I write!

Best Wishes, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

39

Richard:

"I feel better now."

Iīm afraid I have him down as 38, going on 39, Richard. Sorry to crash the party.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Richard,

Much as I like the idea, I'm not sure how the "39 Killer" would have known the age of Martha Tabram.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

His Reason

Mizen continued knocking up. He did not think it was urgent .

Hi Lechmere,

"He did not think it was urgent" is one possibility. Another is that he was a lazy policeman who wanted to make good and sure that his colleague, on whose beat it was, got there first and dealt with it.
Lazy cops are highly skilled at arriving second at any incident.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Mr Lucky]

Hello Lucky. Thanks. So, from your point of view, his giving of "Cross" is not part of the "scam"?

Helpful to know.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

Not really, it's part of the scam, but I would guess it's done because he doesn't want his name in the papers rather than it's an attempt to fool the police in some way.

It's non-contemporary knowledge so I'll not be using it, I have my own "scams" to work around.

Dear old Walter Dew calls him Charles _____, perhaps he couldn't remember his name, or perhaps he could?

[lynn cates]

strangulation

Hello Christer, Ruby. Although off topic, JI is the ONLY candidate who tried to strangle a woman. He is also one of only a few who was known to carry a pair of knives with him--one, well ground down.

Incriminating? You decide.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Lucky. Thanks for clarifying.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Hi Lechmere,

"He did not think it was urgent" is one possibility. Another is that he was a lazy policeman who wanted to make good and sure that his colleague, on whose beat it was, got there first and dealt with it.
Lazy cops are highly skilled at arriving second at any incident.

Regards, Bridewell.

Colin there is another possibility -that Mizen was practical and conscientious.

He couldn't possibly have known about 'Jack the Ripper', and that this was the first of the canonicals, and the importance that this murder would have for Ripperologists.

If he got the information that a woman was dead or drunk in the street (and maybe he had been told that some other policeman was dealing with it) -then I think that it perfectly reasonable to think of those that you have taken on the responsibility for getting to work, above those beyond caring and lying in the street.

[Wickerman]

Cross gave as his name Cross rather than Lechmere. He is never known to have used Cross on any birth death or marriage form, including as a witness , never on a census , never on an electoral roll, never on a school form or baptismal reCord.

Lechmere, do you think people in those days, and especially that part of London, were concerned about their privacy, or retribution?

We have a T.I.P.S. line direct to police for anyone to call who witnesses a crime. No need to give your name and you are not expected to appear in court.
This measure only recognises the fact that ordinary people are not always happy about advertising their identity.
Society does not view T.I.P.S. line witnesses as liars, isn't this basically the equivalent of a 19th century East ender giving a false name?

Regards, Jon S.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

JI is the ONLY candidate who tried to strangle a woman. He is also one of only a few who was known to carry a pair of knives with him--one, well ground down.

Incriminating? You decide.

If I may add William Grant Grainger as the only suspect caught inserting his curiously fashioned knife into a Spitalfields prostitute.

[Tom_Wescott]

Even Cross is a better suspect than Grainger, though I get your point. Lynn's Isenschmidt theory is strangely attractive after consideration. I just need to know how Lynn explains the rest of the murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

Pickford`s carmen with horse and cart - 1905 West India Dock

[Fisherman]

Moonbegger:

" how can we be certain that Cross and Lechmere are in fact , one and the same person ?"

By reading, for example, this copy of a post made by Chris Scott, after that adding our knowledge that Charles Allen Lechmere took up his residence in 22 Doveton Street in mid June 1888. Then we combine our knowledge of this with our knowledge that Charles Cross, who attended the inquest purporting to be a witness, claimed to be a carman of 22 Doveton Street, where we KNOW that Charles Lechmere, carman, lived. Along the way, we notice that Charles Lechmere had once been named Charles Cross, after his stepfather, and we arrive at the conclusion that these men were one and the same.

Hereīs Chris Scottīs very useful post, providing all details involved in the Cross/Lechmere saga:

Charles Allen Lechmere
Birth:
1849 Quarter 4
Strand
Vol 1 Page 385

Marriage:
1871 Quarter 3
St George East
Charles Allen Lechmere married Elizabeth Bostock

Marriage of Charles's parents:
1846 Quarter 2
Hereford
John Allen Lechmere married Maria Louisa Roulson
1851:
Blue School Lane, Hereford
Head: Maria Lechmere (Married) aged 25 born Hereford - Straw bonnet maker
Children:
Emily aged 4 born St Peters, Hereford
Charles aged 1 born St Anns, London
Charles's mother remarried as follows:
1858 Quarter 1
Whitechapel
Maria Louisa Lechmere married Thomas Cross
1861:
13 Thomas Street, St George East
Head: Thomas Cross aged 36 born Burnton, Hereford - Police constable
Wife: Maria Louisa Cross aged 34 born Hereford
Children:
Emily Cross aged 14 born St Peters, Hereford
Charles Cross aged 11 born St Anns, London
1871:
11 Mary Ann Street, St George in the East
Head: Charles A Lechmere aged 21 born Soho - Carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 21 born St George East
1881:
20 James Street, St George Street
Head: Chas. Allen Lechmere aged 31 born Soho - Carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 31 born East London
Children:
Elizabeth Emily aged 7
Thomas Allen aged 4
George William aged 2
James Alfred aged 1
All born in Mile End
1891:
22 Doveton Street, Mile End
Head: Charles A Lechmere aged 41 born Soho - Carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 41 born Wapping
Children:
Elizabeth E aged 17 born Mile End - Purse maker
Thomas A aged 14 - Vanguard (Carman)
George W aged 12
James A aged 11
Louisa A aged 8
Charles A aged 7
Albert E aged 5
Above children born in St Georges
Harriet E aged 12 months born Mile End
Death:
1920 Quarter 4
Charles A Lechmere aged 71
Poplar
Charles's mother in 1841:
Moulton, Northamptonshire
Head: George Roulson aged 4 born Northamptonshire - Plumber
Wife: Alice Roulson aged 35 born Northamptonshire
Daughter:
Maria Roulson aged 15 - not born in Northamptonshire.
By 1871, Charles's mother, Maria Louisa Cross, was a widow as follows:
11 Mary Ann, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Cross (Widow) aged 45 born Whitfield, Hereford
Boarder:
George Blencowe aged 23 born Bethnal Green - Carman
A Thomas Cross died in St George in the East in 1869 but his age as given at the time of death is 34, which does not fit with that given in the 1861 census
Charles's mother remarried again in 1872 as follows:
1872 Quarter 3
Bethnal Green
Maria Louisa Cross
The others listed under the same reference are:
Joseph Forsdike
Robert Frogley
Elizabeth Nicholson
By looking forward to the 1881 census, we can see that Maria married Joseph Forsdike:
1881
23 Pinchin Street, St George in the East
Head: Joseph Forsdike aged 65 born Suffolk - Shoemaker
Wife: Maria Forsdike aged 55 born Herts (sic) - Dressmaker
Grand daughter:
Mary Lechmere aged 6 born St George East
Who this child is is not clear
Joseph Forsdike died as follows:
1889 Quarter 4
Joseph Forsdike
St George East
Aged 74
Maria Forsdike's death is listed as follows:
1901 Quarter 4
St George in the East
Maria Louisa Forsdike
Aged 77
Maria is listed in 1891 as follows:
18 St George Street, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 65 born Hereford - Horse flesh dealer (Cat)
Grandchild:
Mary Jane Lechmere aged 16 born St George East
and in 1901 as follows:
18 Old Gravel Lane, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 76 born Hereford - Corn chandler
Servant:
Jessie Furnell aged 14 born St George East
Marriage of Mary Jane Lechmere:
1899 Stepney
Married Harry Alfred Goodson
In the 1901 census the couple are listed at the same address as her grandmother:
18 Old Gravel Lane
Head: Harry A Goodson aged 25 born St George East - Printer's compositor
Wife: Mary J Goodson aged 26 born St George East
Child:
Alfred F aged 9 months born St George East

I hope this satisfies you, Moonbegger!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"I am ALL for research."

So am I, Lynn. I am just having troubles with people ascribing the same evidential value to a black moustache as to the joint value of the Mizen scam, the alias and the find of where Lechmereīs mother and daughter lived: zero value, that is. Itīs not that you are not free to do so, itīs just that I donīt think it any useful ground for a discussion. Which is why I prefer to end it.

All the best, Lynn!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy:

"Pickford`s carmen with horse and cart - 1905 West India Dock"

Sacking apron and all! Thanks for that, Jon!

Fisherman

[lynn cates]

Cross

Hello Tom. Thanks. I agree that Cross is, well, no worse than Toppy.

Thanks for the kind words about JI. I hope to get some answers soon.

Cheers.
LC