The Mizen scam

[The Good Michael]

Hi Mike



Considering the traffic and police beats that Cross would have been vaguely aware of, would he really have picked up Nichols somewhere and headed back to Bucks Row to slaughter and eviscerate her on the pavement?

Jon,

When I look at the lists of things Ted Bundy did and shake my head at, A) How he could rely on human infallibility so much, and B) how people could be absolutely that predictable and fallible, I think anything is possible. Again, I am not speaking of a vague awareness. I am speaking of an almost total understanding of the beats and of individual police behavior. It goes far beyond what I would even have an inclination to know. Then again, I'm no SK (though I have my moments).

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy:

"Considering the traffic and police beats that Cross would have been vaguely aware of, would he really have picked up Nichols somewhere and headed back to Bucks Row to slaughter and eviscerate her on the pavement?"

We need to weigh in that if Lechmere struck a deal with Nichols down at Whitechapel Road, as has been proposed, the we have ALSO a prostitute with a professional need to keep track of the police beats and timings involved. She may well have been the one who said "Okay, dear, there goes that bobby, now we´ve got fifteen minutes to ourselves and I know just the place where to spend them ..."

All the best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hi Christer

At 2.30 Polly was leaning against a wall, barely able to stand. It probably took her the best part of an hour to stagger towards the Thomas St vicinity. I don`t think she`d be too fussed about police beats that particular morning.

Wherever she bumped into the Ripper, I can`t see her or her killer passing all those alleys, recreation grounds, empty houses, doorways and courts that were available to them as they wandered all the way down to the open Bucks Row. She was that leathered, she probably would have objected to going too far.

(IMO) Cross would not have killed on Bucks Row..( considering how well he knew the street and if he was planning to strangle and mutilate ).. well, maybe if Nichols had been hanging around the Board school and had given a bit of banter to Cross as he passed. But Mizen, Thain, Neal and young Mulshaw didn`t see any women in that vicinity.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Jon Guy:

"Considering the traffic and police beats that Cross would have been vaguely aware of, would he really have picked up Nichols somewhere and headed back to Bucks Row to slaughter and eviscerate her on the pavement?"

We need to weigh in that if Lechmere struck a deal with Nichols down at Whitechapel Road, as has been proposed, the we have ALSO a prostitute with a professional need to keep track of the police beats and timings involved. She may well have been the one who said "Okay, dear, there goes that bobby, now we´ve got fifteen minutes to ourselves and I know just the place where to spend them ..."

All the best,
Fisherman[/QUOTE

I totally agree, Fish.

I think that the Ripper studied police beats in advance, but also that his victims were aware of them.

I can't believe that the Ripper would leave his neck entirely to trusting in the say so of a drunken prostitute desparate for his money.

So he let her tell him that they had 15 'safe' minutes, but he already knew that what she was telling him was true.

I believe that psychologically he just had to be a 'controlling' personality, but he felt in control when he knew where the prostitute would take him, and that her timing was correct.

I feel certain that if he had had to trust in just her judgement, then he would have felt out of control and would have aborted.

[Lechmere]

Jon
Any culprit would probably have been aware in a general sense of the police beats, so the argument that Bucks Row was a dodgy spot to carry out the murder goes with pretty much every potential suspect. All the murder scenes were risky. It went with the territory - literally. But someone fairly intimate with the streets would have a head start over an outsider (Maybrick for example).
Having said this, actually Cross only moved to this precise area in mid June 1888 so I would suggest he had not had time to get too comfortable and to know ever twist and turn and every beat like the back of his hand.

[Lechmere]

Ruby
If we take in the route of Neil's beat then it is quite possible that the culprit (Cross or whoever) saw him (Neil) loitering on Whitechapel Road talking or whatever before he hooked up with Nichols and that gave him a good estimation of how much time he had. I also am certain that the culprit (Cross or whoever) committed the knife attack primarily watching in the direction of the Board School which is how Paul came up and got close behind him. If you inspect the scene on the ground this conclusion is fairly inescapable.

[Fisherman]

"At 2.30 Polly was leaning against a wall, barely able to stand. It probably took her the best part of an hour to stagger towards the Thomas St vicinity. I don`t think she`d be too fussed about police beats that particular morning."

At the same stage, she had taken an active decisdion to seek out a customer, Jon, so she was no more drunk than that. Meaning that she followed an agenda she had followed numerous times before, involving, perhaps, the important detail to avoid police interest.

"Wherever she bumped into the Ripper, I can`t see her or her killer passing all those alleys, recreation grounds, empty houses, doorways and courts that were available to them as they wandered all the way down to the open Bucks Row."

How about Wood´s edge, Jon? Or at the entrance to Court Street? Nothing strange with that. Not much of "all the way" either!

" She was that leathered, she probably would have objected to going too far."

She was perhaps just as weathered as she was leathered, Jon. And then she would have known that some spots were quiter and safer than others.

What are you proposing? That they met in Buck´s Row? That he dragged her there? Or that she was killed somewhere else? Myself, I find further 80 yards or so none too hard to master for a woman that has already walked all the way from Thrawl Street to the vicinity of Buck´s Row!

"(IMO) Cross would not have killed on Bucks Row..( considering how well he knew the street and if he was planning to strangle and mutilate )"

Fair enough, Jon. I don´t concur, though. Very many serial killers have begun their spree close to their homes and in surroundings that were very familiar to them. That´s all I need to know.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Lechmere and Christer

I will concede that Stride was done for on a much busier street with, apparently, someone watching but this smacks more of recklessness rather than awareness.

[lynn cates]

sane

Hello Lechmere.

"[T]he argument that Buck's Row was a dodgy spot to carry out the murder goes with pretty much every potential suspect."

Permit a slight correction--any SANE suspect.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I love speculation which is based on the little facts we know , even if that includes press reports.
It is because of this , I applaud Fish in his interpretation, it reminds me somewhat of how Bob Hinton put our dear George Hutchinson into a different zone.
It shows similar characteristics of how one man can seemingly fool police by being right in police faces, the trouble is if we place Cross in the frame for being Nichols killer, we have to make a case for him doing Chapman/Stride?/ Kate E which would then lead to more speculative angles based on fact/press reports being produced to convince the masses.
Then of course as we have Hutch in the frame for MJK, one of the two will have to be eliminated from our enquiry, unless we can find another speculation [ based on fact] which suggests a double act.
Maybe all of these murders were committed by different persons, we have Cross, and Hutchinson, now we need a frenzied man with a penknife for Tabram.
A man middle aged for Chapman.
A stocky broad shouldered man for Stride,
A sailor type for Kate.
I will have to start working on it,,,but it will be based on all we know...really.
All of this post is written not to ridicule Fish[ far from it] but although I share believe that the answer lies in the original reports, we should try to use any speculation we have to cover all the murders, which almost certainly was a series of killings committed by the same hand.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

possibly

Hello Richard.

"Maybe all of these murders were committed by different persons"

Could be. I'm game.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi LC,
Ok Tabram.. a disgruntled soldier, or even Pearly poll [ a drunken rage]
Nichols.. Cross
Chapman..Jack the Ripper.?
Stride..throat cut by a drunk broad shoulders.
Kate E..Jack the Ripper?
MJK..Jack the Ripper?
That narrows the field down to 3 unknown..
we are getting there..
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

musing

Hello Richard. Thanks.

I already have a lad for Polly and Annie. MJK? Well, Fleming isn't so bad--even better if he had Clan-na-Gael links.

Yes, getting closer.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi L C,
Nearly forgot young Albert Cadosch he obviously despatched Chapman, he made up the entire scenario, that leaves only copycat Jack for Eddowes and Kelly
even closer now.
Richard.

[The Good Michael]

Hi L C,
Nearly forgot young Albert Cadosch he obviously despatched Chapman, he made up the entire scenario, that leaves only copycat Jack for Eddowes and Kelly
even closer now.
Richard.

I'm still going with: Kelly slipped in the shower

Mike