Give Charles Cross/Lechemere a place as a suspect

[Fisherman]

Dave:

"At the moment though I'm torn between Tracy and Jimi's outsider, Jacob Levi and Lynn's far-out "four killer" theory...you can tell I like thinking outside the box!"

Tracy and Jimiīs made a fine job, thatīs for sure. And Lynn is as nice a guy as you are going to meet out here, so he deserves support too. All in all good choices, thus!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fleetwood Mac]

Evening all,

Just add a point here:

If one of the arguments goes: gave a false name at the scene of the crime - sounds dodge. Well, he gave the correct forename and a surname that could be connected with him. So, he didn't really help himself assuming the aim was to disappear. In fact, based on the name he gave, he was tracked down. Hardly, the mark of someone wanting to hide.

[Cogidubnus]

if we look at the case then we see ost people gave the polie their real name although we know some who had aliases which were revealed at the time. Cross's was revealed by an examination of the census records in the early 2000s! Nearly 120 years later!

Hi Lechmere...What we don't know, of course, is whether informally he did offer up both surnames at the time...perhaps explaining his situation and asking which name he should append to the statement...

With or without the use of computers the police force could do a remarkably thorough investigative job, and it simply beggars belief that given his true address they couldn't/wouldn't find out his other name...they only had to ask his wife...and I'd stake money on their having checked with her what time he left home that morning!

It goes beyond that, and if you hang in there, I hope to be able to show you why I think so in days to come.

Hi Fisherman...I'll look forward to it, eagerly...I like surprises!

Speaking about worthy contenders, Dave - who do you favour yourself? And why ...?

Hmm...Every time I think I've spotted a reasonable contender, I discover something new which causes me to reassess things totally afresh...At the moment though I'm torn between Tracy and Jimi's outsider, Jacob Levi and Lynn's far-out "four killer" theory...you can tell I like thinking outside the box!

All the very best

Dave

[Lechmere]

Curious in 1871 Lechmere/Cross and his new wife lived at Mary Ann Street (about 200 yards south of the Berner Street murder scene) with his widowed mother (who in turn was living with a 23 year old 'lodger'). They were all called Lechmere apart from his widowed mother who was called Cross (her second husband Thomas Cross died in 1869).
They were still living at Mary Ann Street in 1876 when one of Lechmere/Cross's children was christened.
By 1881 his mother had moved to Pinchin Street (where she had also lived with her family including young Charles in 1861) and remarried Joseph Forsdike. By this date one of the one of Lechmere/Cross's children was living with his mother and he had moved to James Street.
His mother almost certainly moved out of Mary Ann Street when she remarried in 1872. From Pinchin Street she moved to Cable Street a some point as this is where Joseph Forsdike died in December 1889.
All these streets are within a few hundred yards of each other - and Berner Street.

[Fisherman]

Hi Curious!

Lechmere moved into 22 Doveton Street in June, I believe, just a few weeks before Tabram died on the 6:th of August. The child that would have been sickly had been born three months prior, in March. She died in 1890, October if my memory serves me.

The best,
Fisherman

[curious]

Curious:

"Would you please jog my memory here -- prior to moving to Doveton, did Charles and his family live WITH his mother?"

Have a look at post 4 of this thread, Curious; it pretty much covers all you have to know in this respect!

The best,
Fisherman

Thanks, Fish!

And this is why Cross/Lechmere needs his own place in the suspect area! My mind can no longer retain everything I read and I am no longer certain which thread the necessary information is in!

Trying to keep in my head the dates of the baby's birth and death (which I believe is key IF C-L is JtR) is no longer possible either.

IF C-L was JtR, it was some sort of incredible stress that pushed him over the edge, then he stopped when the stress lessened (or that's how I see the possibility).

[Fisherman]

Curious:

"Would you please jog my memory here -- prior to moving to Doveton, did Charles and his family live WITH his mother?"

Have a look at post 4 of this thread, Curious; it pretty much covers all you have to know in this respect!

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Tom
Without wishing to go dramatically off thread, when you say:
“Le Grand - a police suspect and truly suspicious figure following the Stride murder - left the Olde Crowne Tavern (a mile away from Berner Street) at some time between midnight and 12:30am on the night of Stride's murder”.
The Whitechapel Vigilance Society used to meet at the Crown and it shut at 12.30 and their patrols started from this location. Le Grand was employed by the WVS for a period around the time of the Stride murder, but do you have anything to substantiate a claim that Le Grand left the Crown that night between midnight and 12.30 am on that night, or that he was in the Crown at all on that night?

[curious]

Curious - prior to moving to Doveton Street in mid June 1888, Cross lived at James Street (now Burslem Street). This is about 400 yards due east of the Stride Berner Street site and about the same distance due north of where his mother lived on Cable Street. (I haven't measured these distances but they are not materially out).

Thanks. I needed to know if his family had had its own home before. So the answer is "yes" Charles and family had been under their own roof and he had been responsible for his family before the move.

[Fisherman]

Dave:

"Sorry Fisherman...I'm far from convinced on the scanty (almost non-existent) evidence so far...come up with something more convincing and you may change my mind."

I think I have, Dave, but as Iīve hinted at before, I am not going public with it just yet. I will do so, though, in the not too distant future.

I am not, however, as naïve as to believe that I will sway everybody who are into Ripperology! Such things donīt happen. Let me just say that I have spent 25+ years in the Rippers company without ever thinking that he could be named. Some time back, I thought that a decent case could be made for Fleming, and I still believe that he has a thing or two going for him. But when it comes to Lechmere, I donīt think that he is just an interesting bid for the Ripper. It goes beyond that, and if you hang in there, I hope to be able to show you why I think so in days to come.

Mind you, I think that what has already been presented on him is quite enough to make a very good case!

Speaking about worthy contenders, Dave - who do you favour yourself? And why ...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Cogidubnus - if we look at the case then we see ost people gave the polie their real name although we know some who had aliases which were revealed at the time. Cross's was revealed by an examination of the census records in the early 2000s! Nearly 120 years later!
The police in 1888 simply had no chance of keeping tabs on the crowded and mobile population in the East End. It is not hubris to state this - it is a bald fact. They didn't have computers. That is how Cross was correctly identified. Nearly 120 years later. That is how his life can be recreated which ads potential links to the Nichols murder which tie in with what we know of his involvement at the time - and his potential involvement in the other murders.
Most of the comments on here about probablies and conjecture and fingering an innocent man etc etc etc apply to every single suspect ever mentioned - nearly always with far less basis with which to make a case.

Curious - prior to moving to Doveton Street in mid June 1888, Cross lived at James Street (now Burslem Street). This is about 400 yards due east of the Stride Berner Street site and about the same distance due north of where his mother lived on Cable Street. (I haven't measured these distances but they are not materially out).

[Cogidubnus]

Not convinced

Sorry Fisherman...I'm far from convinced on the scanty (almost non-existent) evidence so far...come up with something more convincing and you may change my mind.

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

One thing on his name – law abiding people didn’t use aliases. We know some people did use aliases because both their alternative name came to light at the time and both were recorded.

Which makes my McCarthy/Carty ancestor deeply suspicious then....frankly I think almost anybody in the old East End might've given a false name to the busies if they thought they could get away with it...I'm afraid the police were loathed and distrusted by quite a large part of the populace as recently as the forties and fiftys...just how much is something you really can't appreciate unless you talk to the old folk!

[curious]

Hi, Fisherman,

Would you please jog my memory here -- prior to moving to Doveton, did Charles and his family live WITH his mother?

Thanks,

[Fisherman]

Gee, Monty, you are such a support!

"Probably" is a term we all need to employ at times, and a useful one too. If two people spend time in a room together, and are found afterwards, one of them with a gash in the head and the other one with an axe in hand, then the latter "probably" whacked the former over the head, right?

We all work from different levels of knowledge. But most of us have picked up on the fact that the Ripper killings occured 124 years ago. That means that the evidence is not what one would hope for - much has gone missing, and very little can be checked. Therefore, if we want to promote a suspect, we will have a hard time finding conclusive evidence. We must link what we have together using the odd "probablies" and "perhapses", making better or worse use of them.

Which is why Iīd like to ask you: are you of the opinion that I do so to to an extent that makes me stand out more than other posters who promote different suspects? Iīd like to think that I do not, instead relying as much as I can on more solid material. Lechmere did not "probably" use another name when speaking to the coppers than the one he signed official documents with, he did not "probably" refuse to helt to prop a woman, arguably in need of help, up, he did not "probably" go to work along roads that took him close to the murder spots, he did not "probably" have his mother and daughter living nearby another murder site, the times the killings took place did not "probably" correspond with times when he could be expected to be close to the sites etcetera.

To me, this represents a form of thinking that is very much employed by rationally thinking police forces - check for connection points. I think that is a very useful approach to the Ripper riddle.

But I am probably wrong, of course.

The best,
Fisherman