Give Charles Cross/Lechemere a place as a suspect

[Tom_Wescott]

Call me biased

You're biased.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Lechmere:

"Garry if there was a westward wind blowing the sound of Thanes boots over150 yards into Neil's ear'ole, then that same breeze would have carried Paul's footfall into Cross's flappers before he was a mere 40 yards away... surely?"

Call me biased, but in this instance I´d have to agree, Garry ... Worn down soles or not!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Bridewell:

"When Lechmere talks about not hearing the sounds of any vehicle, isn't he talking about carts & carriages which might have housed a fleeing killer? I'm not disputing the point made about the absence of trains, but that's what I'd always thought. When Pc Neil talks of not hearing "any disturbance that night", surely he refers to the sounds of an altercation / fight, rather than noise in general? I was wondering too, timetable-wise, about goods trains which, as there is no need for them to do so, presumably don't run to a publicly-advertised timetable.

I accept, though, that, at the material time, trains don't seem to have been an issue."

Correct, Bridewell, whatever Lechmere meant by "vehicles"!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Caz:

"No, you certainly have not, Fish."

My mistake, then, Caz - apologies!

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

And Paul knew Buck's Row as a place frequented by ruffians and so walked around Cross to avoid him, not because Cross had an intimidating look about him per se (or so some think). Yet Cross wasn't worried that Paul might be a footpad sneaking up behind him just after he had spotted the prone form of a woman.
This tells us that Paul was jumpy even though he hadn't as yet seen the body but Cross wasn't flapping at all.
I find that interesting.

[Lechmere]

Garry if there was a westward wind blowing the sound of Thanes boots over150 yards into Neil's ear'ole, then that same breeze would have carried Paul's footfall into Cross's flappers before he was a mere 40 yards away... surely?

[Bridewell]

Goods Trains

Hi Bridewell!

One has to keep track of the timetables when it comes to trains! There was a train passing by at 3.30, witnessed about by Harriet Lilley. But as Lechmere (well ...) and Paul came down the street, it was totally silent, and Lechmere stated that he "did not hear any sounds of a vehicle, and believed that had any one left the body after he got into Buck's-row he must have heard him." Neil said that "He had not heard any disturbance that night."

So no train, no.

The best,
Fisherman

When Lechmere talks about not hearing the sounds of any vehicle, isn't he talking about carts & carriages which might have housed a fleeing killer? I'm not disputing the point made about the absence of trains, but that's what I'd always thought. When Pc Neil talks of not hearing "any disturbance that night", surely he refers to the sounds of an altercation / fight, rather than noise in general? I was wondering too, timetable-wise, about goods trains which, as there is no need for them to do so, presumably don't run to a publicly-advertised timetable.

I accept, though, that, at the material time, trains don't seem to have been an issue.

Regards, Bridewell.

[caz]

You were merely making a hypothetical comparison, including me and daftness. It is much the same like saying "If Caz had a chance, she would presumably rule that everybody who did not buy into Maybrick should be shot."
Such a thing would not say anything derogatory about YOU, it would only make for a nice hypothetical reasoning. Have I understood you right?

No, you certainly have not, Fish. Firstly, my comment about how daft ripperology is becoming can hardly compare with calling for people to be shot if they don't 'buy into Maybrick'.

Secondly, I do not 'buy into Maybrick' myself, so I'd be more than daft to bring in a rule by which I would be shot along with all but the one or two people who do.

Love,

Caz
X

[Garry Wroe]

No, but they would have made much less noise had the soles been badly worn. It is also possible that there was a wind blowing down Buck's Row from Brady Street. Had this been the case the sound of Thain's footsteps would have been blown towards the crime scene, while Paul's would have been carried away from it.

[Fisherman]

Jon:

"Paul was definitely on the pavement as he was making his way along Bucks Row, as he testified that he stepped into the road to pass Cross. "

That´s correct, Jon - I just doublechecked. However, if he had been afraid of gangs hiding in the doorways, why walk on the pavement? Because, I´d say, he knew that the Buck´s Row doorways were too shallow to hide in.

About the cobblestone street, I´d submit that stone is stone, and Pauls steps would arguably not have been silenced by walking on the pavement, would they?

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hi Fisherman

Paul was definitely on the pavement as he was making his way along Bucks Row, as he testified that he stepped into the road to pass Cross.

This was also my point, albeit made badly, that gangs would hide in the doorways to accost people passing on the pavement. This happened to Tom Sadler as he walked down Thrawl St. Even if Cross had not blocked Paul`s way along the pavement it would have been wise to step into the roadway.

My point about Thain been that the measured tramp of the policeman on cobblestones could have been what attracted Neil`s attention, especially at time when Neil would have been alert and looking for assistance.

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy:

"When Neil heard PC Thain, at that point wouldn`t Thain have been crossing the end of Bucks Row on the cobblestones in the road as he crossed from one pavement to the other?"

It was night, so he would be walking close to the facades, checking doors and such. That would have meant that if he was walking on the western side of Brady Street, he needed to leave the pavement of Brady street, cross over the intersection (not entering Buck´s Row, though) and proceed by stepping onto the next pavement on Brady street. If, on the other hand, he was following the eastern side of Brady Street, then there would be no intersection at all, since Buck´s Row ended in Brady Street.

But I fail to see what difference it would make? Thain was more than a hundred yards away, and STILL Neil heard him. Therefore, Lechmere´s not hearing Paul until he was quite close, a mere forty yards away, and Pauls not hearing Lechmere walking in front of him, are two strange things. And I think we can conclude that Paul was walking on the street cobblestones, since he managed to find space to make a wide berth around Lechmere, standing smack in the middle of the street in order to halt Paul.
Thus, arguably, something is very wrong here. Too.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hi Fisherman

Nope - Neil HEARD Thain passing up at Brady Street as he was examining Nichols, meaning that the accoustic distance for footsteps was AT LEAST 110 yards. Context is everything, Jon!

When Neil heard PC Thain, at that point wouldn`t Thain have been crossing the end of Bucks Row on the cobblestones in the road as he crossed from one pavement to the other?

[Fisherman]

Hi Bridewell!

One has to keep track of the timetables when it comes to trains! There was a train passing by at 3.30, witnessed about by Harriet Lilley. But as Lechmere (well ...) and Paul came down the street, it was totally silent, and Lechmere stated that he "did not hear any sounds of a vehicle, and believed that had any one left the body after he got into Buck's-row he must have heard him." Neil said that "He had not heard any disturbance that night."

So no train, no.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

So a train passed as Cross was walking down Bucks Row drowning out Paul's boots scraping on the cobbles? Was that the 2.45 to Liverpool Street? The one that wasn't scheduled to run?