Jacob Levy updated

[Steven Russell]

Surely Abraham's training as a butcher would have made him well aware of how to hang a carcass securely... Old houses often have exposed beams and a sturdy hook driven or screwed into such would be adequate for such a sad and macabre purpose.

Best wishes,
Steve.

PS Jimi's last post above mentions a nail driven into the wall. Why should we dispute this?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Errata

Although it wouldn't be for a lantern, given that overhead lighting was a rich person thing.

Yes but I think we tend to forget that many houses in the East End had started off a hundred years earlier as relatively well-to-do and had come down in the world over the years...then of course there were the former weavers houses which had been built with large upstairs windows (and presumably good lighting) for professional reasons...

My own inclination would tend towards regarding Abraham's cut throat as some form of delusion on Jacob's part...but at this distance who can tell?

Best wishes

Dave

[Steven Russell]

Actually male pattern baldness is inherited from a person's maternal grandfather. Red Green Colorblindness is a sex linked recessive carried by women but primarily affecting men. The comparison was only in that like Wilson's it's a recessive gene thing. Literally the only thing that stuck from Molecular Biology.

Yes. My brother and I are both colourblind as was our maternal grandfather. Our mother is the carrier but has normal colour vision.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Jimi]

Abrahams suicide

Hi All
Thank you for the comments. While TJ and I consider Jacob the most likely suspect this is after all a discussion board and your insights,opinions and views are very welcome.
I have to say that during the article we never wanted Jacob to appear as a gibbering,slavering wreck. Up to a short time before his confinement Jacob was a lucid human, serving and working in his and Sarahs butchers shop.What we speculated is that due to his involvement in the meat trade this masked his latent penchant for the dissection of bodies. Perhaps the death of his mother in May 1888 could be viewed as a stressor?
THE SUICIDE.
There are two reports of Abraham Levys suicide. The first we came across was in the Glasgow Herald dated 28 May 1875. In this report it speculates Abraham killed himself due to gambling debts.it states that once it was realised Abraham had been missing for a while his bedroom door was burst open and Abraham was found hanging. It is the locked door that leads me to assume this could only be suicide......although......
The second report is from the Lloyds Weekly London News 28 May 1875. As this is taken from the inquest report we considered it a more factual account. It does contain some startling facts.
Suicide on Derby Day
On Friday Mr.Humphries held an inquest at the Coach and Horses,Middlesex Street,Whitechapel on the body of one Abraham Levy,aged 22, who commited suicide on Derby night. The evidence proved that the deceased,the son of a butcher, lived at 111 Middlesex Sreet. On Wednesday evening,shortly after 6pm he left the shop and went up to his room for the purpose of dressing, but nothing being heard of hom,suspicions were aroused,when one Joseph Levy,brother to the deceased, going up found the door locked.After repeated knocking,and no answer being given the door was burst open, when he was found suspended from a rope line from the neck to a nail he had fastened in the wall.
The jury recorded a verdict 'suicide while of unsound mind'
The Joseph Levy mentioned in this report is actually Joseph Jacob Levy.
So what effect would discovering Abrahams body have on Jacob. A man who we later know was mentally unstable?
As to the report of Jacob saying Abraham cut his throat, well to be perfectly honest, we don't actually KNOW it was Jacob who said this. There is the possibility that it could have been reported by SARAH, Jacobs wife that Jacobs brother commited suicide by cutting his throat, maybe by the doctors who interviewed her at the asylum, however who is the most likely source of this knowledge. Jacob.
Perhaps, just as a measure of Jacobs trauma, we should look at his earlier episodes.
On 6 April 1886 Jacob is convicted at the Old Bailey and sentenced to 12 months hard labour, on 21 May 1886 he is classified as insane with the remarks by the prison doctor-: he suffers from insomnia,hearing voices,restlessnes and hearing voices,crying,rambling and hearing voices and above all VIOLENCE. Moreover he has attempted suicide.
That is some psychotic episode within seven weeks.
Keep Well and keep it coming

[Errata]

So you reckon even slinging a rope round an existing hook's a lot of bother to go to...sorry, but I think there have been a lot more elaborate self-destruction scenarios than that!

I don't suppose for a moment Levy's brother was one of those suicides who fret for ages over perfecting their own scenario, but I don't see a hanging as that unlikely. Unfortunately people down the ages have done it all the time...and I suspect it's an easier contemplated way out than cutting one's own throat, which to do properly must take incredible resolution!

My own view only though!

All the best

Dave

Yeah I totally can't picture cutting my own throat. But it was a thing then. I mean, if there was a hook there, then sure. Although it wouldn't be for a lantern, given that overhead lighting was a rich person thing. I just can't see him installing a hook to hang himself on. Of course one of the major problems that still plagues people who try to hang themselves today is a lack of structural integrity. About 90 percent of a ceiling won't bear the weight of an adult. Not even a little. So that could account for all the people of the area who cut their own throats. Maybe they ended up in an untidy sprawl on the floor once too often.

I'm still not sure why Levy would lie about how his brother died. It would be very unusual for someone to believe that a loved one died in a MORE gruesome way than they did. Typically the delusion works the other way. Unless of course, more than one brother committed suicide. Which does happen sometimes, but usually it's a situation where there is a genetic disease like Huntington's Chorea, and death by suicide is far more preferable than the progression of the disease. But I digress. In a case like this, self reporting is almost always more reliable than news accounts. If Levy says that his brother cut his own throat, as a manner of reporting that suicidal behavior was in the family, I can't think why he'd lie. And I can think of any number of way the papers could have gotten it wrong.

If I recall correctly from my Research class, self reporting is almost always the most reliable source of information concerning suicide, sexual abuse, sexual behavior, and finances.

Of course, I keep waiting for TJI to come swooping in with the exact quote from the article rendering the argument moot.

[Cogidubnus]

So you reckon even slinging a rope round an existing hook's a lot of bother to go to...sorry, but I think there have been a lot more elaborate self-destruction scenarios than that!

I don't suppose for a moment Levy's brother was one of those suicides who fret for ages over perfecting their own scenario, but I don't see a hanging as that unlikely. Unfortunately people down the ages have done it all the time...and I suspect it's an easier contemplated way out than cutting one's own throat, which to do properly must take incredible resolution!

My own view only though!

All the best

Dave

[Errata]

Screw a hook (butchers fitment maybe?) into a ceiling beam (there may well already be one there for some purpose - hanging a lantern from perhaps or pullying furniture if it's an attic space), a bit of rope and Bob's your uncle...

All the best

Dave

Maybe, but that's a bit of work. There are a million ways to kill oneself. First criteria is that it work. Second criteria is a minimum of suffering. In women, the third criteria is that it not be disfiguring, and after that it's simply a question of ready availability. I mean, there was a guy who drank poison, set himself on fire, and tied a noose around his neck and jumped off a cliff. (Hilariously did not work) But that kind of care and preparation is pretty rare. A person is far more likely to use a method at hand then to build a method to use. Like I said, for all I know this is all laid out in the newspaper article. But all things being equal, in this instance I would believe Levy over a reporter. Although I suppose if someone were really determined they could both cut their own throat and hang themselves...

[Errata]

Hello, all.
It's not quite true that nothing links Jacob to the case. Tracy has discovered that he was a cousin of the witness Joseph Levy, who seemed to know more than he would tell.

Not that it's important but colour blindness is inherited from a person's maternal grandfather.

Best wishes,
Steve.

Actually male pattern baldness is inherited from a person's maternal grandfather. Red Green Colorblindness is a sex linked recessive carried by women but primarily affecting men. The comparison was only in that like Wilson's it's a recessive gene thing. Literally the only thing that stuck from Molecular Biology.

[Fisherman]

Steven Russell:

"It's not quite true that nothing links Jacob to the case. Tracy has discovered that he was a cousin of the witness Joseph Levy, who seemed to know more than he would tell."

That´s correct, Steven. And that adds some spice to the Mitre Square sighting, admittedly. Just as it adds to Tracy´s good work!

The best,
Fisherman

[Cogidubnus]

'ave a butchers...

The brother's suicide is also interesting. But When I first read that he had hanged himself in his room, I confess to being confused. I live in an older home, where no one bothered to run electricity into the ceiling. I couldn't hang myself in this house if I tried. There's just nothing to hang myself from.

Screw a hook (butchers fitment maybe?) into a ceiling beam (there may well already be one there for some purpose - hanging a lantern from perhaps or pullying furniture if it's an attic space), a bit of rope and Bob's your uncle...

All the best

Dave

[Steven Russell]

Hello, all.
It's not quite true that nothing links Jacob to the case. Tracy has discovered that he was a cousin of the witness Joseph Levy, who seemed to know more than he would tell.

Not that it's important but colour blindness is inherited from a person's maternal grandfather.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Fisherman]

Abby:

"...he does tick quite a few other boxes..."

He does. And that has not been lost on Tracey, I dare say! Which is why we have that eminent work on Levy. Mind you, the local aspect and the age thing is not much of a deciding background, and the priors, well, we cannot even be sure that we should look for them in the first place, can we?
Of course, when we add a bit of a nutty behaviour to the stew, we get a compelling bid at first sight, but just like I said, I think that we may need to stay away from fitting Jack into a loonies´suit. Heaps of examples tell us that killers with an inside chaos need not portray that chaos on their respective outsides.

The best,
Fisherman

[Errata]

This left us with certain facts.
A. Jacob was a Jew
B. Jacob had knife skills.
C. Jacob was the right age and matched the height and weight of one of the witness statements.
D. Jacob knew the area intimately living in the middle of all the murder sites. He had spent all his life in that area.
E. He discovered his elder brother's body hanging.
F. He was jailed for stealing a piece of meat, thereby starting a downward spiral that led him to lose his business and home.
G. Jacob feels he will do violence unless restrained.
H. He complains of hearing voices.
I. He wanders the streets for hours.
J. He states that his brothers throat was cut, not that he hanged himself.
K. He feels someone will attack him.
L. He was more than likely schizophrenic.
M. He died from Syphilis, most likely Neurosyphilis.
N. His mother died in 1888.

Again the article goes into this in a lot more detail but I think we have made a good case for Jacob being a strong contender as a suspect of Jack, anyone else agree/disagree?

Tracy

Wow. Great research job. I have a few arguments, but philosophical in nature, not factual.

I don't think that being a Jew should be a criteria for Jack the Ripper. I'm aware that several police officers thought he would be, but there is no evidence to support that.

The brother's suicide is also interesting. But When I first read that he had hanged himself in his room, I confess to being confused. I live in an older home, where no one bothered to run electricity into the ceiling. I couldn't hang myself in this house if I tried. There's just nothing to hang myself from. Typically water was only run to the kitchen, and there would be no radiators, so there shouldn't be exposed pipes in the room. There wouldn't be ceiling light fixtures, nor ceiling fans. Now I haven't read any article on this suicide, and it may explain how he managed it. But based solely on my knowledge of the era, if you told me that he had committed suicide, I would have assumed he cut his own throat. Wrist cutting was more of a feminine thing, he wouldn't have a gun, nor access to drugs. And poison is damned painful. So I have to ask if it is possible that the papers were wrong as to his method of death? Is it possible that the family said it was hanging because it is less violent?

I also don't think Jack the Ripper was schizophrenic. Or even obviously mentally ill. Mostly because people remember crazy people. Because schizophrenia is a structural and chemical problem in the brain, people who suffer from it cannot pull themselves together long enough to appear normal. Now of course schizophrenia is at least initially episodic. But if a schizophrenic is killing women during his lucid moments, it doesn't matter that he's schizophrenic. It isn't the illness driving him.

Which brings me to another curiosity. His skin had a copper colored discoloration? That's bloody unusual... and not typically a symptom of syphilis. Now ordinarily, madness + mania + skin discoloration = Wilson's disease. Wilson's is a rare hereditary genetic defect. It causes psychosis, mania, behavioral changes, and also causes many of the renal and hepatic symptoms common in tertiary syphilis. The problem is, it also causes a whole bunch of neurological problems that would preclude him from being a successful serial killer. Now he lived a bloody long time with it untreated, which is unusual, but it's possible that his poverty prevented him from eating the foods that have the highest concentrations of copper which would have slowed the progression of the disease. Now it's rare, and it's a long shot, but most mental illnesses don't have direct heredity. It would be astonishing that two brothers would be mentally ill. But two Eastern European parents who are carriers, that could affect multiple children, like color blindness or blue eyes.

Anyway, it's a theory. I always thought the timing was unusual for him to not have syphilis upon his first hospitalization, and for him to be dead of it four years later. But if he had a disease that mimics neurosyphilis, it might explain some things.

[Abby Normal]

Abby:

"he seems to fit the classic, mentally disturbed type who would commit these murders."

He seems to fit the classic, mentally disturbed type who we prefer to THINK would commit these murders. But is that really the best approach to solving them: creating a mental image of an archetypical Ripper, and then dismissing all the ones who do not display the mental disturbances we want the Ripper to have?

It is, of course, basically a question for a thread of it´s own. I just felt that it was important to make the point here, since, just like you say, nothing ties Levy to the case as such.

All things considered, it of course remains that Tracey´s work on Jacob Levy is interesting and impressive!

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish

But is that really the best approach to solving them: creating a mental image of an archetypical Ripper, and then dismissing all the ones who do not display the mental disturbances we want the Ripper to have?

No-it is not-totally agree. But he does tick quite a few other boxes (apart from the mental issue) such as local, right age, priors etc.

[Fisherman]

Abby:

"he seems to fit the classic, mentally disturbed type who would commit these murders."

He seems to fit the classic, mentally disturbed type who we prefer to THINK would commit these murders. But is that really the best approach to solving them: creating a mental image of an archetypical Ripper, and then dismissing all the ones who do not display the mental disturbances we want the Ripper to have?

It is, of course, basically a question for a thread of it´s own. I just felt that it was important to make the point here, since, just like you say, nothing ties Levy to the case as such.

All things considered, it of course remains that Tracey´s work on Jacob Levy is interesting and impressive!

The best,
Fisherman