Jacob Levy updated

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=tji;216867]Hi Abby

I disagree Abby he is tied to the area, he is tied to the case by Joseph Levy, whether you believe Joseph knew anything or not, he is tied by having some knife skills, etc.
Can we prove any of this, no not yet, but then if we could we would say he was Jack to just a strong contender. Tell me can you name any other suspect that is circumstantially as good as Jacob?

Caroline died May 1888 and we have to assume old age as she would have been round about 69.

We have no reason to believe he killed Abraham in my opinion as according to the reports he was sent up to check on Abraham when he hadn't come downstairs.

Hi Fish

Yes I do agree we allow our prejudices of what we believe he should be like to cloud our vision, I for one would be amazed if Jack turned out to be a sane calculating killer but we have to allow for that, humans are nothing if not unpredictable!



Thanks Fish, coming from yourself that is indeed a compliment (although I reallly can't take all the credit, it was definitely a group effort)

Tracy

Hi Tracy
Thanks for the response.

I disagree Abby he is tied to the area, he is tied to the case by Joseph Levy, whether you believe Joseph knew anything or not, he is tied by having some knife skills, etc.

IMHO none of these things factually "tie him to the case". The closest might be being the couson of Joseph Levy, but being related to a witness does not tie someone to a case.

Tell me can you name any other suspect that is circumstantially as good as Jacob?

I didn't really want to go down this road but since you asked:
Kosminski
Tumblety
James Kelly
Bury
Blotchy
Chapman
Le Grand
Piggot
Puckridge
Cutbush.....and so on.

And that would just be for starter, i have not even included people who are actually tied to the case as witnesses- like lechmere, Hutch etc.

The main difference between these folks and jacob levy is that they were actually suspects or at least persons of interest.

One of the main factors that you seem to place on the "suspecthood" of Levy is the crazy issue. I dont-but that just me because i dont think JtR was schizo or had any kind of mental illness that manifested itself outwardly in his daily life. Again just my speculation.

Another question I ask you is what put you on the path to researching jacob levy as a suspect?? Did you set out looking for all institutionalized (insane)men or just Jews?

And i will be very frank in giving you the motivation for this question. Andersons "definitely ascertained fact" seems to have set off a hundred years of people looking for crazy jews as suspects from kosminski to David Cohen to now Jacob Levy. And honestly that bugs me a bit.

Also, Not sure if it is accurate that you call jacob levy "a"suspect-he may be your suspect but I dont think he fits the criteria of being a valid suspect. Alot of people have put forth names of people in recent years and it seems to be getting out of hand. most recent its Van Gogh and other artists. just because someone puts out a name and gives what they beleive is circumstantial evidence, does that make them "a" suspect. Is Van Gogh now "a" suspect?I think not. But only the test of time will tell i suppose.

Now, I would remiss having said all that-if i did not also say that i really do appreciate what you all have done in researching this very interesting charactor, who definitely is worth further research. Good luck and i will for one be looking out for any other findings you come up with.

[Wyatt Earp]

Tell me can you name any other suspect that is circumstantially as good as Jacob?

tji, are you familiar with William Bury? He 1) murdered a woman, 2) performed abdominal and genital mutilations with a knife on a woman, 3) possessed mysterious cheap rings that could have come from Chapman (Tumblety is not the only major suspect with "mystery rings"), 4) very possibly chalked messages at his residence that could tie him to the Goulston Street graffito, 5) matches well some of the witness descriptions, including those of seemingly reliable women Long and Maxwell, and 6) can be associated with relevant suspect profiles. Further, the murders began after he arrived in the area and ceased after he left. Do you think that the circumstantial case for Levy is as good as that?

[tji]

Hi Roy

Still reading the article, this is from his second and final admission in 1890:

"Sarah now states that Jacob’s brother Abraham did not commit suicide by hanging himself, instead she deposes that Abraham died by cutting his throat! ..."

Sarah said that.

It doesn't agree with your point J., Tracy.

Missed that, good catch, I am answering for Jimi here and can just apologise, this is just a simple mistake Jimi has made. This is his Achilles heel, for some reason, he keeps thinking that it was in the deposition that Sarah gave but it isn't, it is separate.

Do you know if I am allowed to publish the page on here to stop any confusion, or is it not allowed through copyright?

I do intend to type out all the records when I have caught up with everything so people can read it word for word rather than having to go from our posts. However in this instance it is a page that is typed out asking about previous attacks etc and one question is - Whether any near relative has been afflicted with insanity the answer to this is - Yes elder brother cut his throat

Sorry for any confusion and hope this clears it up.


Tracy

[tji]

[QUOTE]

Personally, Jimi, I think if you boil it down to the bones you don't have much at all.

You are wrong FM we have plenty, definitely enough for researchers to look him into further.
Can you tell me then FM - Is Kosminski a better suspect, Tumbelty, Gull, Cutbush, Ischescmidt? if so, why are they?

Jacob meets the criteria of the time, he also meets the Profile of Jtr and he is also in the centre of all the 'events.' Do any of the other suspects do this? Now I am not here to argue that all other suspects are no good, becasue I am not, the majority of suspects out there have possibilities otherwise they wouldn't be suspects, I am trying to understand why you think Jacob isn't as good as them?

May have had syphillis, a cousin for a witness, mind problems. I'd imagine a quarter of the east end were teetering on the egde of depression/lunacy and were blighted by personal tragedy.

No, he did have syphilis.
He did have a cousin who was a witness.
He did have 'mind problems'

I think you need some more maybe's.

Perhaps you could name me some names of the quarter of the East End of the time that ticks all the boxes like Jaocb if he was such a common commodity?

Boil down to the bones all you want FM, but the article was about putting Jacob up there as a suspect not as Jack. We stated up front we don't have any physical evidence, what we do have is a plausible person who needs further investigation and in my opinion is a solid suspect.


Tracy

[Fisherman]

Tracy:

"... I for one would be amazed if Jack turned out to be a sane calculating killer ... "

That´s TWO parameters you are using, Tracy! How would you feel about an INsane calculating killer...?

Unless there was some rational ground for what he did - like, for example, the old suggestion of harvesting organs for selling them on (something I don´t buy into, but I needed an example), we must work from a presumption that the Ripper was not "sane" in the broader meaning of the word.

Then again, we ALSO must weigh in that what he did may (and probably would) have made all the sense in the world to himself! In that respect, he would have reacted "rationally" to his inner urges.

Have a look at the Norwegian mass killer Breivik, who stands trial as we speak. He killed 77 people, most of them kids. He gunned down 14-year old children, and finished them off by shooting them in their heads as they lay helpless on the ground.
Today, he says his only regret is that he did not manage a few more. He asserts us that he would do the exact same thing, given the chance. He pleads self-defence, stating that he needed to respond to the islamization and political and cultural decay of Norway.

Clearly, he is absolutely nuts. But he is ALSO a man with above average IQ, and a guy that has always been appreciated for his low-key manners, his helpfulness, resourcefullness and his respectable behaviour.

He fuelled his anger during long sessions in front of his computer, and he grew a hatred on his inside that was not there to see for the people surrounding him.

He was as calculating as any killer can be, we know that today. And I would submit that he was also outwardly sane, although he was morally insane on the inside. And that insanity built up a pressure that finally exploded. Before it did, however, very little pointed to it being there; Breivik had problems interacting with girls, and he proved a short fuse on the odd occasion. But that was it - nothing more went to show who and what he was. And he has many parallels in this respect, among serial killers.
Ridgway: Slippery jokes, and a professed dislike for prostitution. And that was it.
Rader: A need to control and a demand for others to follow rules and regulations. End of story.
Bundy: A charming guy, with a difficulty to hold on to jobs and pursue studies. No more.

Sane on the surface, insane inside. Completely rational, all of them, upholding healthy societal relationships. None of them making much of a fuss of themselves.

I can easily imagine the Ripper being of this ilk.

All the best!
Fisherman

[tji]

[QUOTE]

Except that Levy mentioned the 'rough character hanging about'.

Not quite FM - he says 'Look there, I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about,'

but he took no notice of them and was unable to give a description. However, he did estimate that the man was about three inches taller than the woman.

But I miss your point, what would you prefer him to say 'No I didn't see anyone but he looks nothing like my cousin Jacob Levy?!'

That doesn't speak to me of a cousin, but someone he knew well enough to assess his character as rough (probably someone he knew from a friend or from work). If, that is, Levy did actually say that.

Since he didn't use the word 'rough' then I guess your point fails here. Although I am curious as to why you will accept that he knew the person enough to be a friend or work colleague but not his cousin?

Tracy

[tji]

Hi Dave

My own inclination would tend towards regarding Abraham's cut throat as some form of delusion on Jacob's part...but at this distance who can tell?

This is the scenario we are going for, Jacob's delusion, or dare I say 'interest' in cut throats? However in all fairness to being unbiased we have to point out that it may have been possible that Sarah answered the questions and made a mistake. I tend to go with it being Jacob as Sarah's deposition was on the opposite page of the records.

Surely Abraham's training as a butcher would have made him well aware of how to hang a carcass securely... Old houses often have exposed beams and a sturdy hook driven or screwed into such would be adequate for such a sad and macabre purpose.

Best wishes,
Steve.

PS Jimi's last post above mentions a nail driven into the wall. Why should we dispute this?

Again this makes sense, Thanks Steve, I hadn't thought of the fact he would have had the training with the carcasses but it is an excellent point.

Jimi's description came from the newspaper account of the inquest, so as you say there isn't a lot of reason to dispute it that I can see.

Tracy

[tji]

Hi Dave

I don't suppose for a moment Levy's brother was one of those suicides who fret for ages over perfecting their own scenario, but I don't see a hanging as that unlikely. Unfortunately people down the ages have done it all the time...and I suspect it's an easier contemplated way out than cutting one's own throat, which to do properly must take incredible resolution!

I agree completely here, I realise I am female so not in the high percentile of using throat cutting if I were to commit suicide, but I think if I had a choice between hanging and cutting my own throat then I would choose hanging.

My own view only though!

Best view to have


Tracy

[tji]

Hi Errata

I don't think that being a Jew should be a criteria for Jack the Ripper. I'm aware that several police officers thought he would be, but there is no evidence to support that.

But this is the problem through the entire case, we have no proof, all anyone can do is try to piece together the conjecture of the time and find people who fit the criteria. As you say there is no proof he was Jew, but it has been put forward at the time so I guess it comes down to personal belief really.

I have to be blunt here, me personally cannot see anything suspicious about Abraham's death. I don't believe the family could have covered it up as a Doctor was called to the scene to verify life was extinct, I don't think he would make the mistake of confusing the two. As Roy has pointed out it was an inquest report that made the newspaper so we have to go by that I think.

I also don't think Jack the Ripper was schizophrenic. Or even obviously mentally ill. Mostly because people remember crazy people. Because schizophrenia is a structural and chemical problem in the brain, people who suffer from it cannot pull themselves together long enough to appear normal. Now of course schizophrenia is at least initially episodic. But if a schizophrenic is killing women during his lucid moments, it doesn't matter that he's schizophrenic. It isn't the illness driving him.

I tend to disagree, As I stated on the old thread I personally don't believe that Jacob was necessarily schizophrenic, I believe he had Neurosyphilis however depending on what was allowed to be 'normal' at the time, someone with schizophrenia would not necessarily be seen as crazy and incapable of killing. He may be known around the area as odd but not necessarily a dribbling mess. But again I guess it comes down to personal understanding of the case.

Which brings me to another curiosity. His skin had a copper colored discoloration? That's bloody unusual... and not typically a symptom of syphilis. Now ordinarily, madness + mania + skin discoloration = Wilson's disease. Wilson's is a rare hereditary genetic defect. It causes psychosis, mania, behavioral changes, and also causes many of the renal and hepatic symptoms common in tertiary syphilis. The problem is, it also causes a whole bunch of neurological problems that would preclude him from being a successful serial killer. Now he lived a bloody long time with it untreated, which is unusual, but it's possible that his poverty prevented him from eating the foods that have the highest concentrations of copper which would have slowed the progression of the disease. Now it's rare, and it's a long shot, but most mental illnesses don't have direct heredity. It would be astonishing that two brothers would be mentally ill. But two Eastern European parents who are carriers, that could affect multiple children, like color blindness or blue eyes.

No, we realise copper coloured discolouration is not necessarily syphilis, but from the research we did into it, syphilis is the most logical choice, plus the fact the asylum doctor said he was probably syphilitic and the other symptoms that have been discussed.

I really don't believe Wilson's disease is a option for Jacob. While it wasn't discovered until 1911 I don't think Jacob would have had the symptoms that would have been noticed in Jacob.

Wilson's is very rare, out of 5 million people average number to have Wilson's disease is round about 160. Also Jacob had brothers why didn't they have it?

As for the physical symptoms -the rings round the eyes would have been strange enough to be mentioned in the reports of the asylum and the copper discolouration you described is actually jaundice in Wilson's disease, this is different to the description of Jacob, he was 'covered with copper coloured discolouration, most likely syphilitic.' I think we have to trust the Doctors of the time knew the difference between Jaundice and syphilis.

We are lucky that in Jacob's case we have a prolonged medical record, I admit still not perfect, but it isn't a case of a one-time entry, he was monitored over a months. Also as syphilis was common t the time I would think they would recognise the symptoms.

Anyway, it's a theory. I always thought the timing was unusual for him to not have syphilis upon his first hospitalization, and for him to be dead of it four years later. But if he had a disease that mimics neurosyphilis, it might explain some things.

I did explain my theory on this on the other thread, that Jacob actually contracted syphilis before marrying Sarah (1879) and having children. Once he was out of the contagious stage then there would be no danger to Sarah and their children, hence the reason they never contracted it.
Once Neurosyphilis starts to affect the body there is on average a window of 5 years. if we do the math, Jacob's first attack was 1886 and he dies of syphilis 5 years later in 1891, another coincidence?
Also the effects of Neurosyphilis can be -

The onset of psychiatric symptoms of general paresis can be insidious, first noticed by family and friends rather than the patient. These include loss of ambition at work, memory lapses, irritability, unusual giddiness, apathy, withdrawal, and a decline in attention to personal affairs. Later, patients may present with mental changes simulating schizophrenia, euphoric mania, paranoia, toxic psychosis, or presenile dementias. Presenile dementia is most common, manifesting with depression, confusion, and severe impairment of memory and judgement.

Tracy

[tji]

Hi Tracy
Very interesting. I dont know about "strong contender" as there is nothing that ties him to the case. But he seems to fit the classic, mentally disturbed type who would commit these murders.

A couple of things-when exactly and how did his mother die?

Also, perhaps he killed his brother

Hi Abby

I disagree Abby he is tied to the area, he is tied to the case by Joseph Levy, whether you believe Joseph knew anything or not, he is tied by having some knife skills, etc.
Can we prove any of this, no not yet, but then if we could we would say he was Jack to just a strong contender. Tell me can you name any other suspect that is circumstantially as good as Jacob?

Caroline died May 1888 and we have to assume old age as she would have been round about 69.

We have no reason to believe he killed Abraham in my opinion as according to the reports he was sent up to check on Abraham when he hadn't come downstairs.

[QUOTE]

He seems to fit the classic, mentally disturbed type who we prefer to THINK would commit these murders. But is that really the best approach to solving them: creating a mental image of an archetypical Ripper, and then dismissing all the ones who do not display the mental disturbances we want the Ripper to have?

It is, of course, basically a question for a thread of it´s own. I just felt that it was important to make the point here, since, just like you say, nothing ties Levy to the case as such.

Hi Fish

Yes I do agree we allow our prejudices of what we believe he should be like to cloud our vision, I for one would be amazed if Jack turned out to be a sane calculating killer but we have to allow for that, humans are nothing if not unpredictable!

All things considered, it of course remains that Tracey´s work on Jacob Levy is interesting and impressive!

Thanks Fish, coming from yourself that is indeed a compliment (although I reallly can't take all the credit, it was definitely a group effort)

Tracy

[Roy Corduroy]

Still reading the article, this is from his second and final admission in 1890:

"Sarah now states that Jacob’s brother Abraham did not commit suicide by hanging himself, instead she deposes that Abraham died by cutting his throat! ..."

Sarah said that.

It doesn't agree with your point J., Tracy.

J. He states that his brothers throat was cut, not that he hanged himself.

unless I am missing something. Was there another instance of this anomoly being recorded in his records?

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

... if you have two stories about a suicide, one from the press and one from a family member in a confessional setting, psychological research methods at least hold that self-reporting is the most reliable source ...

Again, the source material Lloyds' Weekly, was reporting the inquest proceedings, at which "the evidence proved ...he was discovered suspended by a rope line from the neck to a nail which he had fastened in the wall."

If there was an inquest, then I assume some official or doctor concurred with the means of death. It was not an issue. the newspaper wasn't reporting hearsay, but an actual inquest proceeding.

Roy

[Errata]

Surely Abraham's training as a butcher would have made him well aware of how to hang a carcass securely... Old houses often have exposed beams and a sturdy hook driven or screwed into such would be adequate for such a sad and macabre purpose.

Best wishes,
Steve.

PS Jimi's last post above mentions a nail driven into the wall. Why should we dispute this?

It certainly isn't as though Jimi is lying. My point was that if you have two stories about a suicide, one from the press and one from a family member in a confessional setting, psychological research methods at least hold that self-reporting is the most reliable source of information regarding such events. Meaning that Levy's story would be more likely to be true than a newspaper story. And there are ways this doesn't end up being true, but statistically the shrinks are right most of the time on this. Which is to say if Levy was lying and the newspaper stories are the truth, that would be terribly unusual but not impossible.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi All
Thank you for the comments. While TJ and I consider Jacob the most likely suspect this is after all a discussion board and your insights,opinions and views are very welcome.

Personally, Jimi, I think if you boil it down to the bones you don't have much at all.

May have had syphillis, a cousin for a witness, mind problems. I'd imagine a quarter of the east end were teetering on the egde of depression/lunacy and were blighted by personal tragedy.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello, all.
It's not quite true that nothing links Jacob to the case. Tracy has discovered that he was a cousin of the witness Joseph Levy, who seemed to know more than he would tell.

Not that it's important but colour blindness is inherited from a person's maternal grandfather.

Best wishes,
Steve.

Except that Levy mentioned the 'rough character hanging about'.

That doesn't speak to me of a cousin, but someone he knew well enough to assess his character as rough (probably someone he knew from a friend or from work). If, that is, Levy did actually say that.