Blotchy

[Wickerman]

Sorry Wick
What is she wrong about -are you saying she hallucinated Blothcy? What are you saying?

My reservation with Cox is that she got the time wrong after she left her house at midnight.

And besides you are even contradicting yourself as everyone knows that cox was not the only witness to hear Mary singing that night. You are quite mistaken I am afraid.

No, you didn't read what I said.
I have no problem with Cox saying she saw Kelly with Blotchy at 11:45 pm.
Cox then said she left about 15 minutes later, Kelly was singing.
Pickett also heard Kelly singing about 12:30 am.

No problem with the above.

Its what Cox claimed after that I am suspicious of, due to the conflict between her & Prater it is possible that Cox got the time wrong. She didn't return at 1:00 am.

It would have been easy for the police to corroborate Praters time's, they only had to ask McCarthy, she was in the shop talking to him.
Prater heard no singing after 1:00 am, VanTurney heard no singing at all.

No-one corroborated Cox's claims.

Mary Kelly could have been killed by Blotchy between 12:30 & 1:00 am (I don't think so), or she could have left and gone back on the streets.

Cox went out, so why not Mary? The weather is always used as an excuse, but clearly it wasn't bad enough to keep Cox indoors.

Regards, Jon S.

[Abby Normal]

Abby.
As much as I have no reason to doubt Cox, she doesn't have to be intentionally lying to be simply wrong.
In my view a "very credible witness" is one who's story can be corroborated.

Cox was not a credible witness, nothing she claimed was verified by anyone. In fact possibly contradicted by Prater, unless we make considerable allowances, which should not instil anyone with confidence.

Regards, Jon S.

Sorry Wick
What is she wrong about -are you saying she hallucinated Blothcy? What are you saying?

People are convicted everyday on eye witness accounts that are not "corroborated" so I would say your standard of what makes a "credible witness" a tad unrealistic. And besides you are even contradicting yourself as everyone knows that cox was not the only witness to hear Mary singing that night. You are quite mistaken I am afraid.

[Wickerman]

... Blotchy however was seen by a very credible witness with the victim entering her room and was the last man seen with MK while she was alive (other than the probably fictitious Aman). That should put him a couple notches above BGman IMHO.

Abby.
As much as I have no reason to doubt Cox, she doesn't have to be intentionally lying to be simply wrong.
In my view a "very credible witness" is one who's story can be corroborated.

Cox was not a credible witness, nothing she claimed was verified by anyone. In fact possibly contradicted by Prater, unless we make considerable allowances, which should not instil anyone with confidence.

Regards, Jon S.

[Abby Normal]

"Blotchy Face" is only a description though, not the name of a person, so I'm not sure how much consideration 'he' can get, other than to acknowledge the possibility that whoever killed MJK may have had a blotchy face and a thick carroty moustache.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell

]"Blotchy Face" is only a description though, not the name of a person, so I'm not sure how much consideration 'he' can get

Sorry i disagree. He was an actual person seen by a witness.

[Abby Normal]

I may be mistaken, Abby, but Cox didn't say Blotchy was drunk.

Regardless, we all know inhibitions are relaxed when under the influence.

you are right. I beleive I was responding to someone who said something to the effect that a drinking/ drunk killer does not fit their idea of a serial killer/JtR.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I find it hard to envisage a scenario where they agree that he pays for an hour and a half of singing followed by 10 minutes punter/prostitute. Seems unlikely, and as we can be reasonably certain he didn't pay for a quick 10 minutes then the best option is that he paid for the night.

Clearly, the invitation was not one of 10 minutes before Mary moved onto the next punter.

The evidence points to her settling down for the night - the singing, the folding of the clothes, the beer pot, her being intoxicated.

Hi FM
Absolutely. also, the bad weather, being very comfortable with Blotchy, the fire.

[Abby Normal]

The offer will always stay open Abby, as soon as someone figures out how "they" realized he was fabricating, and by what documented evidence, then the offer is still open to put an end to this conjecture.

But not to divert the thread...




Though not if the police believed MJK died "after 4:00 am", right?
They would have to believe in a "Time of Death" of around 1:00-2:00 am. for them to pursue Blotchy, it was afterall 11:45 pm when Cox saw him enter Kelly's room.
No-one else saw Blotchy, not in the street, not in a pub, or beershop. The police did look for this guy.



What do we do with a man who only appeared for one brief shining moment?
He's no more traceable than the Bethnal Green botherer, right?, and how much attention does he get?, just the same.



When someone is up to no good, complacency is not foremost on there mind.
They will be anxious, and will feel vulnerable, and the mutilations to Kelly could have been completed within the hour.

Do you think Blotchy was done & gone by the time Hutchinson walked up to Kelly's door at, what shall we say, maybe 2:20 am?

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Wicker
But not to divert the thread
No we dont-Hutch has been done to death. All it really comes down to is whether you beleive him or not. I beleive he was there that night but probably did not see MK or Aman.

Though not if the police believed MJK died "after 4:00 am", right?
They would have to believe in a "Time of Death" of around 1:00-2:00 am. for them to pursue Blotchy, it was afterall 11:45 pm when Cox saw him enter Kelly's room.

No-not really. he could have killed her any time after the time she was last heard singing and up to the early morning. I do place weight with the corrobarated cries of murder around 4:00am so that is most likely TOD.

What do we do with a man who only appeared for one brief shining moment?
He's no more traceable than the Bethnal Green botherer, right?, and how much attention does he get?, just the same.
He could be discussed ALOT more than he is at the very least. BG man has always been an intriguing character for me as I have said to you in the past, and I dont rule him out at all. Blotchy however was seen by a very credible witness with the victim entering her room and was the last man seen with MK while she was alive (other than the probably fictitious Aman). That should put him a couple notches above BGman IMHO.

When someone is up to no good, complacency is not foremost on there mind.
They will be anxious, and will feel vulnerable, and the mutilations to Kelly could have been completed within the hour.

Given the opportunity, serial killers have been known to spend hours, days with their victims.

Do you think Blotchy was done & gone by the time Hutchinson walked up to Kelly's door at, what shall we say, maybe 2:20 am?

Probably not-which is why Hutch probably left. As I stated before i think TOD was probably around 4:00 so Blotchy was more than likely done and gone by 5:30 ish. But other possible scenarios is he was done and gone much earlier and Hutch received no answer when he knocked on her door around 2:15 ish and beleiving she was still out, decided to wait around for 45 minutes and when she did not return, left.

[Bridewell]

Great Minds / Fools

Not original I know, but out of interest how many others, like me, suspect that Blotchy was an "old friend" - not in the purely literal sense, but in that of an old and trusted client, who'd be up for a shant and the craic as well as the other...just a feeling...else why the song?

Dave

Hi Dave,

I was thinking much the same when I reached your post. I'm also wondering whether or not MJK was actually operating within the law. Prostitution, per se, is not illegal. Soliciting, importuning or loitering for that purpose are illegal, as is two prostitutes working from the same premises (brothel). If she's simply meeting a regular client and going home with him she's committing no offence.
I'm not sure that gets us anywhere, but that was my thought.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

no charge

Hello Dave. Well, I don't think there was a charge for the song. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Not original I know, but out of interest how many others, like me, suspect that Blotchy was an "old friend" - not in the purely literal sense, but in that of an old and trusted client, who'd be up for a shant and the craic as well as the other...just a feeling...else why the song?

Dave

[Wickerman]

Although Prater acknowledges that Cox could have returned between 1am and 1.30am without Prater's knowledge.

Yes, Prater does indicate that she went up to bed about 1:20 am. so Cox could have come out after 1:20.
But, Prater was standing at the end of the passage from 1:00-1:20, and went up to her room and in bed by 1:30 ?
So, contrary to cox, if Kelly had been singing after 1:00 am Prater couldn't help but have heard her.
Which begs the question, did Cox really know what time it was?

In terms of no one being in Kelly's room, people bring a beer along when they're settling in for an extended chat.

Right, but a can of ale doesn't last all night.
Blotchy arrived at 11:45 pm, if he killed her he could have been out well before 1:00 am.
I don't think he did, but there is no reason to assume he planned to stay all night.

Regards, Jon S.

[Fleetwood Mac]

And if Prater is to believed, there was no singing between 1:00-1:30 am, and no-one (Cox) came down the passage between 1:00-1:20 am, when Cox claimed she did.

Both Cox and Prater gave statements that are striking in their absence of drama. Neither Cox nor Prater appear to have seen a great deal.

Although Prater acknowledges that Cox could have returned between 1am and 1.30am without Prater's knowledge.

Which means, there was no "Blotchy & Kelly" at that time.
Earlier maybe, but no-one was in Kelly's room between 1:00-1:30 am., or she was already dead.

Cox leaves around 1am; Prater returns around 1am.

As both ladies have kept their statements to not knowing a great deal, perhaps Kelly simply quitened down around 1am. Assuming she began singing around 11.45pm and 12.00am, then an hour is plenty of time to run out of steam.

In terms of no one being in Kelly's room, people bring a beer along when they're settling in for an extended chat.

[Wickerman]

Hello Lynn,

And if Cox is to be believed it is unlikely that anyone entered Kelly's room , or hung around the court, between 2.30 and 5.30; which would rule out Hutch and his vigil and it follows thus A-Man.

And if Prater is to believed, there was no singing between 1:00-1:30 am, and no-one (Cox) came down the passage between 1:00-1:20 am, when Cox claimed she did.

Which means, there was no "Blotchy & Kelly" at that time.
Earlier maybe, but no-one was in Kelly's room between 1:00-1:30 am., or she was already dead.

Cox seems to have given the least dramatic of the witness statements, so I'll go with her.

I'll go with her in so far as she said she saw Blotchy with Kelly at 11:45 pm, anything she claimed after that is debatable.

Perhaps Dr Bond wasn't far off all along - primitive methods or otherwise.

A distinct possibility.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

reports

Hello Mac. Thanks.

I still get the uncanny feeling that, given the descriptions of A-man and Blotchy, that Cox and Hutch are BOTH reading the official police reports on Millen and McDermott.

But why?

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac.

"I find it hard to envisage a scenario where they agree that he pays for an hour and a half of singing followed by 10 minutes punter/prostitute."

That makes two of us.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

And if Cox is to be believed it is unlikely that anyone entered Kelly's room , or hung around the court, between 2.30 and 5.30; which would rule out Hutch and his vigil and it follows thus A-Man.

Which means either:

Blotchy is still there at 1.30am and is the murderer.

Someone entered Kelly's room alone shortly after 1.30am, as according to Cox he must have left by 3.00am.

Kelly went back onto the streets after 1.30am, found a client in quick time, who just happened to be Jack.

Personally, I'd go with the man known to have been in the room. More likely as far as I can see.

This would, of course, put paid to Lewis and Prater.

Cox seems to have given the least dramatic of the witness statements, so I'll go with her.

Perhaps Dr Bond wasn't far off all along - primitive methods or otherwise.