Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[Wickerman]

There's a heck of alot of organs above and in front of a kidney, if he did not intend to remove this obscure organ he certainly chose the last one available.
Not the kind of object you come across by accident, in the dark, sloshing about wrist-deep in intestines & such...

[DVV]

There's a heck of alot of organs above and in front of a kidney, if he did not intend to remove this obscure organ he certainly chose the last one available.
Not the kind of object you come across by accident, in the dark, sloshing about wrist-deep in intestines & such...

It depends on the cuts. Did he only know he took a kidney ? I bet he feverishly waited for the inquest that would tell him what it was.

[DVV]

I think we can safely assume JtR had no significant anatomical knowledge and was a local man.

The big question, worth debating in 2012 as it was in 1888 is : was he a Jew or not ?

It was a major fracture then, and it still is. It affects our views on minor mysteries such as who wrote the GSG ? was MJK random ? etc etc

[Malcolm X]

I think we can safely assume JtR had no significant anatomical knowledge and was a local man.

The big question, worth debating in 2012 as it was in 1888 is : was he a Jew or not ?

It was a major fracture then, and it still is. It affects our views on minor mysteries such as who wrote the GSG ? was MJK random ? etc etc

what and you think that'll be easy to answer as well, think again !!!

try this...... no idea !

no seriously, well it depends who you think JTR is, because if he's GH then no he isn't a Jew, he's blaming them instead..... obviously, well if he isn't then i'm the Pope.

but if JTR's Schwartz then yes he's a Jew, but the trouble is, there are far too many suspects that look like a blonde Sailor Boy, a Jew is rarely seen.

because the Graffiti might mean..... `` the Jews are bla bla everything``, because you lot are too ignorant to blame anyone else``. JTR could even be a member of that club, Stride could have gone there to meet JTR without realising....... but i doubt it.

i cant imagine a Jew blaming his own race for JTR, he's more likely to blame the Palestines, the muslims, the Arabs, Saladin etc

[DVV]

I can see you're in great shape, Mal.

Thanks for this crystal-clear and sensible post.

[DVV]

because if he's GH then no he isn't a Jew

Agreed all round.

But if he's a Jew, then no he isn't GH.

[Wickerman]

I think we can safely assume JtR had no significant anatomical knowledge and was a local man.

Local man certainly, and living alone, or having his own space, yes.
Even the best Doss-houses would provide no less than 10 beds to a room. The only partition being a headboard for the bed.
Some did provide what was called a "cabin", which passed for private accomodation at 3/- p/w, which was cheap compared to a rented room like Kelly's at 4/- p/w or thereabouts.
Many an educated man "fell from grace" only to take up accomodation in an East-end Doss-house.

The big question, worth debating in 2012 as it was in 1888 is : was he a Jew or not ?

It was a major fracture then, and it still is. It affects our views on minor mysteries such as who wrote the GSG ? was MJK random ? etc etc

No, not a Jew.
I think we can place the blame for that line of thinking squarely on some of the media playing on the deep rooted anti-semitic feelings prevalent across the East-end.
An Englishman was simply too civilized to indulge in such heinous pursuits!

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

Agreed all round.

But if he's a Jew, then no he isn't GH.

uuuuumm yes.... obviously, is my post that bad !

but if he isn't GH and the graffiti isn't from JTR either, then he could be a JEW yes.

i'm no help to you here at all, because i'm 100% convinced that JTR is the anti- semetic Sailor boy, but not necessarily GH, because he could be Blotchy instead, a white male joe average whose also a ``Deviant pervert with necrophilic tendancies``, flipping heck, why cant we talk about gardening instead !

[Errata]

if you have friends like this take great care, because it's like a timebomb waiting to explode.

How utterly idiotic. On the other hand, way to not let facts get in the way of your opinion. I mean, anyone with even a passing knowledge of the disease would have realized what utter bunk the above statement is, but you, you stuck to it. You put your head down and with bold determination chose to not educate yourself in the slightest on schizophrenia. You chose to die of thirst before drinking from the fountain of knowledge. Bravo good sir. Bravo.

[DVV]

Hi Jon

No, not a Jew.
I think we can place the blame for that line of thinking squarely on some of the media playing on the deep rooted anti-semitic feelings prevalent across the East-end.
Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon, anti-semitic feelings in the case came mostly from the press (Leather Apron), or rumours, etc.
But several police officials did honestly believe he was a Jew.

edit : not my take, but it's a (relatively ?) serious track, and a major fracture in suspectology now and then.

[Errata]

I think we can safely assume JtR had no significant anatomical knowledge and was a local man.

The big question, worth debating in 2012 as it was in 1888 is : was he a Jew or not ?

It was a major fracture then, and it still is. It affects our views on minor mysteries such as who wrote the GSG ? was MJK random ? etc etc

I don't know that I would categorize that as "the big" question... especially in that it doesn't matter kind of way. I mean, it's trivia. Like his hair color or his mother's maiden name. If he was Jewish, it didn't inform his victim choice, or his technique, or really anything. We have very specific rules about how we treat the dead, and not a single one of those laws were observed. I mean, statistically the odds aren't great. There just aren't that many of us. Never were. We can equally be blond or dark, fair or sallow, any of the men the eyewitnesses could have been Jewish. Or none of them. Jews would not have prevented his capture any more than Christians would have. Though to be fair, being Jewish would have slightly upped his odds of being killed by a family member at that point in time. It's not an honor killing thing, but a kind of ruthless pragmatism occasionally displayed by Eastern Jews of the era. It would have been considered defensive by the community if they ever learned of it.

But I don't think that happened. There is nothing to suggest he was in fact a Jew. No evidence against it either, but statistics don't really support it. There is no disease peculiar to Judaism that could have trigger such attacks, there is no Jewish ritual evidenced, it would not help him hide, or prevent his discovery, nor would it work against him. I can certainly accept that certain witnesses thought they saw a Jew in the area, but the stereotype of someone "looking" Jewish was no more correct then than it is today. So unless the guy had the sideburns and the prayer shawl, I don't think the witnesses had any idea what religion their suspect was. In the end, I can't see that it matters at all, unless you just really want to understand the GSG.

[DVV]

Well, a victim murdered in a Jewish club, Jews alluded to near to the ONLY clue ever left behind him by the killer, and the whole police divided on this very question.

That it doesn't matter in your opinion does not matter that much, then, don't you think ?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon, anti-semitic feelings in the case came mostly from the press (Leather Apron), or rumours, etc.
But several police officials did honestly believe he was a Jew.

Are we talking about memoirs here?

If we are talking about contemporary opinion I think we have Mrs Long's "foreigner" to thank for that, though she was not sure.
No indication from the suspect descriptions in Berner St., nor Mitre Sq.
Hutchinson could have been playing up to the already established fear, making Astrachan appear more Jewish than he really was.

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

Are we talking about memoirs here?

If we are talking about contemporary opinion I think we have Mrs Long's "foreigner" to thank for that, though she was not sure.
No indication from the suspect descriptions in Berner St., nor Mitre Sq.
Hutchinson could have been playing up to the already established fear, making Astrachan appear more Jewish than he really was.

Regards, Jon S.

Read official police reports and contemporary interviews, Jon, you'll realize it was a serious track in 1888, long before Anderson's tales.

[jason_c]

if you have friends like this take great care, because it's like a timebomb waiting to explode.

Millers court is not that much of a mess, he has laid the body parts carefully around the body and on the table etc, so he's definitely in control..... it's only revolting because we're not used to the sight of blood and the organs etc

the mess he's made of the body is something different, it's been totally emptied by somebody that has little or no knowledge of Anatomy, he's also in a strange trance, that makes him toy with his knife, his knife is picking at her corpse like the beak of a vulture, he's looking at her bones, looking at this, looking at that, doing it quietly, it's like a kid removing the stuffing from a teddy bear !...... it's Necrophilia, in a way.

I agree with this. The body parts werent flung around willy-nilly. The body parts were placed where he wished to place them. Am I correct in saying the removed organs(minus heart) were all on the bed and not placed on the table? On the table was placed only flesh. Is this correct?