Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[Garry Wroe]

Hi Garry, I completely agree with your reasoning. Thanks for posting this.

Thanks, Dave. I'd also point out that my grandad, who was born around the turn of the Twentieth Century, was able to butcher pigs and the like before he even left school. Economic neccessity led many working-class people of that period to rear animals as a source of food. Thus rudimentary butchery skills, even amongst schoolboys, were not especially uncommon.

[The Good Michael]

I see that some continue to cite examples of schizophrenic friends and acquaintances who behave relatively normally. Were these posters to spend a little time with schizophrenics who are not subject to a daily regimen of antipsychotic drugs they might better understand the devastating effect this disease exerts on sufferers.

Schizophrenia is progressive, right? That means it gets worse. People I've known seemed fine and later were put on medication for this disorder, but I wasn't with them when they had episodes. Strangely enough, the episodes began after experimentation with drugs of which I wanted to play no part.

Every schizophrenic is different. Generalizing is an easy way to force people into some mold. the reality is vastly more complex and not entirely understood. Talking about what a schizophrenic is or isn't is exactly like profiling. It's easy enough, after the fact, to categorize someone, but during the process of his/her living, it's impossible to say exactly what someone is.

Mike

[DVV]

Sorry, Abby, but this only holds true if the Ripper killed Stride and authored the Goulston Street message, and there is more than a little room for doubt on both counts.

I'm sorry to sound flat, Garry, but I haven't the slightest doubt re Stride. Kidney was innocent, so what a coincidence if she wasn't killed by her lover, nor by JtR that night.
As for the GSG, since the piece of apron is the only clue ever left in the whole story, I just can conclude it was placed purposely where it has been found. Whether Jack wrote it, or merely "liked" it - it makes no difference. I'd say it's more likely that he wrote it, though.

[Errata]

I see that some continue to cite examples of schizophrenic friends and acquaintances who behave relatively normally. Were these posters to spend a little time with schizophrenics who are not subject to a daily regimen of antipsychotic drugs they might better understand the devastating effect this disease exerts on sufferers.

Schizophrenia is a terrible disease. But violent behavior is no more a hallmark of Schizophrenia than it is of Bipolar. Calling Schizophrenics a ticking time bomb is inaccurate and unfair. And warnings to keep away from Schizophrenics because their disease is just waiting for an opportunity to beat the crap out of you is just moronic.

It was worse in 1888. There is no denying it. There were no drugs, no treatments. And stress seriously affects the severity of onset and the progression of the disease, and East Enders had no opportunity to avoid stress. He could have been Schizophrenic. He would have to be the right kind, and would have to be violent (which if I recall would be a 1/6 or 1/8 chance) but he could have been. But with 2% of the population being schizophrenic, again, you are looking at a statistical improbability.

And of course if he killed while lucid, then it doesn't matter what his mental state was the rest of the time. I don't think anyone will ever say that Schizophrenics cannot be dangerous. Anyone, mentally ill or not, can be dangerous. But to single them out as especially dangerous just doesn't fit the facts.

[Garry Wroe]

As far as I can determine, Errata, there is no disagreement between us. There are some, however, who appear to view schizophrenia as the cognitive equivalent of an ingrowing toenail, failing to recognize the full implications of what is a devastating disease. And for what it's worth, I consider the chances of the Ripper having been a schizophrenic as slightly less than zero.

[Errata]

Orthodox Jews don't kill others http://gothamist.com/2011/07/15/levi_aron.php


Mike

Of course Jews kill people. Good Lord, we had/have an organized crime division called Murder Inc. We even have the occasional serial killer.

But why does it matter whether or not Jack the Ripper was Jewish when it doesn't matter whether or not Albert Fish was Jewish? Or David Berkowitz?

Clearly a good many Londoners believed he was, but most of that was also clearly antisemitism. His religion did not inform his crime, it did not facilitate or prevent his escape, it did not draw more or less attention. And it doesn't help identify him. Sure, there is some historical interest in finding out whether the police were antisemitic or were right. Or both. But it's also of some historical interest whether Jack was left handed or not. A question that most people have decided is trivia.

Perhaps I am being overly practical and not seeing some bigger picture, but why does it matter? If we find the answer to that question, "the biggest question", what do we gain from that knowledge?

[The Good Michael]

Errata,

I was responding to Lynn telling us that an Orthodox Jew couldn't have been the killer. Anyone could have was my point.

Mike

[DVV]

Oh sigh....what do you expect from knowledge, Errata ?
I'm expecting knowledge.

Now if proved that he was local Jew, we will have a better picture of his background, education, culture, language skills, friends and aquaintances...+ as I said, it will give clues as to the interpretation of the GSG, Lipski, etc.

Almost nothing, as you can see.

[The Good Michael]

As far as I can determine, Errata, there is no disagreement between us. There are some, however, who appear to view schizophrenia as the cognitive equivalent of an ingrowing toenail, failing to recognize the full implications of what is a devastating disease. And for what it's worth, I consider the chances of the Ripper having been a schizophrenic as slightly less than zero.

Just above Hutchinson then?

Mike

[Garry Wroe]

I'm sorry to sound flat, Garry, but I haven't the slightest doubt re Stride. Kidney was innocent, so what a coincidence if she wasn't killed by her lover, nor by JtR that night.

I wasn't stating an opinion one way or the other, Dave. I was merely pointing out that Stride as a Ripper victim is an assumption rather than an established fact.

As for the GSG, since the piece of apron is the only clue ever left in the whole story, I just can conclude it was placed purposely where it has been found. Whether Jack wrote it, or merely "liked" it - it makes no difference. I'd say it's more likely that he wrote it, though.

I'm inclined to agree, Dave. But there again, we cannot be certain. What has long bothered me is that the killer had ample time to leave a written message in Kelly's room had he wished, but declined to do so. Maybe that should be telling us something about the Goulston Street message.

[Errata]

As far as I can determine, Errata, there is no disagreement between us. There are some, however, who appear to view schizophrenia as the cognitive equivalent of an ingrowing toenail, failing to recognize the full implications of what is a devastating disease. And for what it's worth, I consider the chances of the Ripper having been a schizophrenic as slightly less than zero.

I think that if people were more aware of the fact that it is not a mental illness like depression, that it is a cognitive disorder that permanently cripples the very thought process and information storage in the brain, and about as benign as a railroad spike through the head, and causes physical brain deterioration faster than any known disease other than lethal dehydration and Ebola, they would realize that in an age with no treatment whatsoever, a violent paranoid schizophrenic has about as much of a chance of getting away with a series of crimes undetected as your average elephant. In tap shoes.

[Garry Wroe]

Just above Hutchinson then?

Yep. And slightly below your knowledge of schizophrenia.

[Garry Wroe]

I think that if people were more aware of the fact that it is not a mental illness like depression, that it is a cognitive disorder that permanently cripples the very thought process and information storage in the brain, and about as benign as a railroad spike through the head, and causes physical brain deterioration faster than any known disease other than lethal dehydration and Ebola, they would realize that in an age with no treatment whatsoever, a violent paranoid schizophrenic has about as much of a chance of getting away with a series of crimes undetected as your average elephant. In tap shoes.

I've been banging the same drum for years. But somebody always has a friend who ...

Well, you get the picture.

[Errata]

Oh sigh....what do you expect from knowledge, Errata ?
I'm expecting knowledge.

Now if proved that he was local Jew, we will have a better picture of his background, education, culture, language skills, friends and aquaintances...+ as I said, it will give clues as to the interpretation of the GSG, Lipski, etc.

Almost nothing, as you can see.

I'm all for the pursuit of knowledge. But it is an unusual priority to say that this is THE most important question. I have to admit, it doesn't make my top ten.

[The Good Michael]

Yep. And slightly below your knowledge of schizophrenia.

Then we're equals? Cool.

Mike