Who are the mostly likely suspects?

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
We are still rambling on about Fleming's height, being realistic it was 67'', and as the upper range of his weight was 163lb's, quite a stocky guy, especially in 1888.
I was 5'10'' in my teens [ a fraction shorter now] and weighed in at 168 lbs, and I was considered tubby for the 1960s ....
If Fleming was five feet seven, and stocky, he would fit several witnesses accounts, his height and weight would also give him the broad shouldered look from the rear.
Enough of his shape, he must be a serious candidate, that is of course if it could be ascertained that he was Kelly's ex .
Back in the 1970's on Barlow and watt, there was a interview with a elderly nun, who revealed the following.
''When I was a young novice back in 1915, the subject of the murders arose, and a elderly sister who was present, made a comment,''If it were not for that Kelly woman, none of the murders would have happened.''
The elderly sister was resident in the Dorset street refuge in 1888.
Whilst I accept the nuns interview might have been fictional[ a actor etc] we have no conformation of it being so, and I find it [albeit oral history] fascinating.
I have from that day believed that Mary Kelly was the reason for the killing spree, and once the killer had despatched her, there was no incentive to continue, he may even have blamed her for his previous actions, and in killing her, he was eliminating his guilt, as she had been to blame, and that autumn could be laid to rest.
Apart from Fleming, I find what possibly could be McCarthy's suspect, a candidate.
According to Fiona Kendall lane, she claimed that her great grandfather knew who the killer was, and the motive, and although she never revealed more , gave us all a major clue.
A man called at the court to see Mary Kelly, and being a nuisance was despatched in ''true McCarthy style'' this man claimed that Mary had stolen something of his[ a watch?] .
Was this the killer of Kelly, and was this the motive?
So in these two suspects we have the former being[ possibly] a ex of the dead woman, who was confined as a lunatic.
The latter being a very viable suspect , especially if it was McCarthy's suspect albeit it would have been a nameless one, and that event possibly would have been told to the police after the murder, but not absolute, it could have been an after thought, not initially connecting it , to what appeared to have been a Ripper murder.
Because of McCarthy's attitude towards him , and if the stranger was the killer, he may have targeted Millers court as a venue, to get his own back on McCarthy, with all the aggravation it would cause.
I feel that the above points are more viable then naming a lot of unrealistic suspects, simply because they much discussed , and were in many cases put forth for commercial success.
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

If the only "banana" in Fleming's candidacy is that "6'7", then there is probably no banana at all, since there are excellent reasons to believe Fleming wasn't that tall, but rather 5'7. There are two odd 6 in JF records : "160 years" and 6'7, which made one thinks it was perhaps 150 years and 5'7. Now, interestingly, Debs suggestion will put Fleming at 5'7 as well, or let's say : 67 inches.

Therefore, that you put so much faith in a likely mistake to mock a theory you dislike is both pathetic and inamical.

You can't explain why such a height would have been cancelled by Mary. You can't explain why such a thin guy could be a plasterer and a dock labourer. You can't explain why the medics never alluded, even not once, to this bizarre constitution.

But still you grab this poor 6'7 and hammer it like a tantra-mantra. Who is biased on this ?

I can explain all the above. You won't listen, however. You have been a Flemming fan for many years and now that there are tidbits, you throw away what you don't like. This makes you a horsesh%t investigator. No joking here. You are too emotionally involved and either medication or a rest is warranted. Really, I wish I were 10 years old again too. Have a nice day.

Mike

[DVV]

Hi Richard, thanks for that excellent post :

We are still rambling on about Fleming's height, being realistic it was 67'', and as the upper range of his weight was 163lb's, quite a stocky guy, especially in 1888.
I was 5'10'' in my teens [ a fraction shorter now] and weighed in at 168 lbs, and I was considered tubby for the 1960s ....
If Fleming was five feet seven, and stocky, he would fit several witnesses accounts, his height and weight would also give him the broad shouldered look from the rear.
Enough of his shape, he must be a serious candidate

Agreed. Back in the sixties again, you may have seen plasterers working "à l'ancienne" (with a ruler). Tough job, isn't it ? I remember watching one plasterer named Charlot when my father was building his house. Such a strong and stocky guy, indeed. No thin man can do this job, and as far as I'm aware, plasterers don't work "à l'ancienne" anymore, cos it's really too hard. So no surprise if a plasterer son of a plasterer was rather stout. Especially when his mother's name is Mason.

that is of course if it could be ascertained that he was Kelly's ex .

Sorry to be redundant, Richard, but no better candidate than Fleming-the-son-of-Richard-and-Henrietta has ever been found. He only fits the bill.

Back in the 1970's on Barlow and watt, there was a interview with a elderly nun, who revealed the following.
''When I was a young novice back in 1915, the subject of the murders arose, and a elderly sister who was present, made a comment,''If it were not for that Kelly woman, none of the murders would have happened.''
The elderly sister was resident in the Dorset street refuge in 1888.
Whilst I accept the nuns interview might have been fictional[ a actor etc] we have no conformation of it being so, and I find it [albeit oral history] fascinating.
I have from that day believed that Mary Kelly was the reason for the killing spree, and once the killer had despatched her, there was no incentive to continue, he may even have blamed her for his previous actions, and in killing her, he was eliminating his guilt, as she had been to blame, and that autumn could be laid to rest.
Regards Richard.

I'm with you again, Kelly is the key. That the only victim butchered indoors was also the last victim (at least in a true ripper style), and the only one in her twenties, must mean something. If not, there would be too many coincidences, imo.

I thus believe JtR stopped for the same reason Kemper called the police after he killed his mother. Both are necro-sadists, btw.

[DVV]

I can explain all the above. You won't listen, however. You have been a Flemming fan for many years and now that there are tidbits, you throw away what you don't like. This makes you a horsesh%t investigator. No joking here. You are too emotionally involved and either medication or a rest is warranted. Really, I wish I were 10 years old again too. Have a nice day.

Mike

Poor Mike, your posts on this thread are clear for all casebookers.

You are the 10 years child hammering "6'7 !" while any reasonable person would find that height at odds with his weight, witnesses testimonies and medical notes.

So, 6'7 aside, could you tell us why Fleming shouldn't be a viable candidate, please ?

You can't, of course. Fleming is as viable as Kosminski, Bury, Hutch and a few others. The rest is a matter of opinion and speculation, and cannot be proven.

Have a nice day, and don't forget your afternoon snack.

[DVV]

I can explain all the above.
Mike

Clearly you can't. You can't even answer simple questions you were asked :

-Why this silence about the height (from Mary /Barnett / Venturney) ?

-Why the same silence from the medics ?

And quite simply : Why this absolutely uncorroborated 6'7 wouldn't be a mistake ?

[Bridewell]

I Like Flemingos

Flemingos.

I couldn't help but notice that after a marked lull in the Fleming discussion, you decide to bring up the issue again, despite being the one to complain a few posts ago that the debate over him was hijacking the thread.

No, Fleming was probably not 6'7" or anything close, and for the reasons discussed ad nauseam, the entry was almost certainly in error.

Hi Ben,

It's a fair cop, guvnor. I'm bang to rights!

If I can be permitted to use the F word just once more, I do like the term "Flemingos".

Regards, Bridewell.

[DVV]

Fair enough, Bridewell.

Poor Flemingos are accused of being blind and stubborn when they merely and reasonably suspect a mistake in a hand-written file.

[Rubyretro]

(I loved the term 'Flemingos', as well ! )

Here's a question for you David...

When it was said that Mary was still visited by an ex- boyfriend called 'Joe', of whom she was still fond ...why couldn't that refer to Joe Barnett, who we know still visited her, and who was obviously still fond of her, and was an 'ex' ?

[Malcolm X]

the only thing wrong with Blotchy, is that he doesn't leave anything anti- semetic at the murder scene.... because if JTR did at Ghoulston st, then he would have at Millers court as well.

you see, it looks like he was moving on and starting to play games with the police, but with MJK he's gone quiet again, yet become far more repulsive.

if JTR is not GH, then something is not right here.

why would JTR, if the police have no idea who the hell he is, suddenly stop mutilating, choosing instead to downgrade himself, back to what he once was before Tabram !!!!

1.......he got her heart and after this needed nothing else
2.......Kelly was the last of 5 murders required
3.......JTR was known to the police, or things were getting too hot.
4.......JTR went to the police.

this i cant help feeling so suspicious about, it makes no sense to me and is fundamental

JTR downgraded and stopped, because for whatever reason, the police were far too close to him.

GH......GEORGE CHAPMAN and thirdly, Blotchy

of these by far the most likely to be JTR, is either of the GHs and it could quite easily be Toppy, but if so, he would need have a very similar personality/mindset to the BTK killer, i.e he doesn't really care less if he waits another 10 years before killing again, or decides to stop completely.

this type is extremely rare, but that TV program on ``Quest`` is a perfect example of someone like this.

but to be honest, it looks like GH is someone else and Toppy is innocent

[The Good Michael]

(I loved the term 'Flemingos', as well ! )

Here's a question for you David...

When it was said that Mary was still visited by an ex- boyfriend called 'Joe', of whom she was still fond ...why couldn't that refer to Joe Barnett, who we know still visited her, and who was obviously still fond of her, and was an 'ex' ?

Ruby,

Sorry to butt in. Vanturney said that it was another Joe. She also said she thought he was a costermonger. When Richard brought up the thought that it could have been a completely different Joe, and rightly so, David called him ridiculous because it didn't fit David's preconceived notions of some 8 years ago.

Mike

[Malcolm X]

the Flemingo on the right is called the ``greater Flemingo``, he's 6ft 7''' tall and weighs 11 stone

[lynn cates]

antisemitism

Hello Malcolm.

"the only thing wrong with Blotchy, is that he doesn't leave anything anti- semitic at the murder scene.... because if JTR did at Ghoulston st, then he would have at Millers court as well."

And, by parity of reasoning, perhaps Buck's Row and Hanbury?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Hello Malcolm.

"the only thing wrong with Blotchy, is that he doesn't leave anything anti- semitic at the murder scene.... because if JTR did at Ghoulston st, then he would have at Millers court as well."

And, by parity of reasoning, perhaps Buck's Row and Hanbury?

How do we know he did or didn't? Were the police consciously looking for such things? Would they even have known if something was left that was a message?
Obviously the apron and graffiti is a glaring message, though it's absolutely a stretch to think the murderer wrote it. Read it? Sure. Liked it? why not? But wrote it? I don't believe so.

To the topic. Aside from Kosminski (who's a stretch), and Druitt (if one connects dots and makes a mountain out of a molehill) and Kelly (though there is no evidence), we have no one who takes less than a herculean effort to make into a serial killer.

Mike

[lynn cates]

omit

Hello Michael. Then why not leave "serial killer" out?

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Here's a question for you David...

When it was said that Mary was still visited by an ex- boyfriend called 'Joe', of whom she was still fond ...why couldn't that refer to Joe Barnett, who we know still visited her, and who was obviously still fond of her, and was an 'ex' ?

Oh, that is hilarious...Barnett telling the inquest that Kelly was visited by...himself.

Can't believe my eyes. Indeed, no Flamingo would ask questions of that kind.

"...she lived (...) with Joseph Flemming, she was very fond of him. (...) Flemming used to visit her..."
Barnett, at the inquest.