If Astrakhan Man existed, how likely is he to have been Mary Kelly's murderer?

[Rubyretro]

Incredible, Wickerman !

-A Man and Lawendes's man could "easily be the same man" ?

("age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor." )

Of course G.H. could have just have added in the red handkerchief as a
'hint', couldn't he..

[Sally]

I'm not sure a gentleman would have sported a red handkerchief. It would have looked rather out of place in his club, I feel, amongst all those monogrammed white jobs.

[Phil H]

He carried a bag, so they say, what do you think was in this bag, as well as his knife lets say?

Also described as a "parcel" I believe? How do you imagine this looking - how big?

Phil

[Brenda]

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Off-topic but I find the "Astro-man" nickname adorable. You guys always find little ways to inject the humor into an otherwise grim case.

[Phil H]

If he'd been a regular in the East End, I suppose it would have been called his astroturf.

Phil

[Sally]

Yes, Astro-Man seems to have caught on - that'll teach me to be facetious! Ah, but if he was merely a figment of Honest Geo's imagination, would that make him an Astro-Nought?

[Wickerman]

Incredible, Wickerman !

-A Man and Lawendes's man could "easily be the same man" ?

("age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor." )

Assuming the killer had more than one set of clothes, he had means?, then the principal means of ID would be age, build, height, appearance = hair, eyes, moustache, beard, etc.

Lawende (to police):
Age, about 30.
Height, 5ft 7-8.
Build, Meduim.
Appearance, Fair complexion and fair moustache.

Hutchinson (to police):
Age, 34-35.
Height, 5ft 6.
Build, (not stated)
Appearance, Pale complexion, slight moustache.

These men were not 25, neither 45.
They were not 5ft nor 6ft.
They were not stout nor short.
They were not dark complexioned, not unshaven, nor with beards nor sideburns.
All the details which could arguably have suggested they were entirely different men were absent.

To all intents and purposes they could easily have been brothers, or (horror of horrors) the same man.

Regards, Jon S.

Ok, hands up.....who wears the same clothes every day?

[Chris]

Thanks for all the interesting responses to my ingenuous question.

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the vexed question of the cries of "Murder." If those cries came from Kelly, wouldn't the timing suggest that she was murdered by another client, subsequent to Astrakhan Man?

[ChainzCooper]

Actually, that article doesn't mention Melvin Harris. What I was referring to was Harris investigated Donald McCormick's book where he published his "Eight little whores" rhyme. It was being passed off as a 19th century contemporary poem.
In this rhyme McCormick spelled Heneage as Henage, which is how Robert Spicer mistakenly spelled the same Court.
Harris charged that the poem was inspired by the Spicer report and as such the claim that the poem originated in the 19th century is a fraudulent claim.

So, what I was thinking had no direct bearing on what I wrote.

Regards, Jon S.

I wasn't talking about the rhyme I was just telling you that I remembered reading about his claim in her book. Didn't the supposed victim also send a card to P.C. Spicer every year thanking him for saving her? Its an interesting story
Jordan

[Wickerman]

Thanks for all the interesting responses to my ingenuous question.

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the vexed question of the cries of "Murder." If those cries came from Kelly, wouldn't the timing suggest that she was murdered by another client, subsequent to Astrakhan Man?

And if they didn't, ... we might have another witness to the events that night, who peeked through the broken window, then too afraid to come forward.

I wonder how many examples we have of a victim shouting "murder" as she is attacked - a little too theatrical for my tastes.
There's all kinds of other exclamations I can think of, but Kelly only cries the one word that no-one takes any notice of? ...rather than .... "help"!

Anyhow the scream appears to be heard about 3:45am give or take 15 mins.
Only 45 mins after Hutch left the scene - not bad timing.

[Sally]

I

wonder how many examples we have of a victim shouting "murder" as she is attacked - a little too theatrical for my tastes.
There's all kinds of other exclamations I can think of, but Kelly only cries the one word that no-one takes any notice of? ...rather than .... "help"!

Yes, that would be my take on it, Wickerman. Then again, I have to say I don't know how common the cry of 'Murder!' was in the LVP - so maybe what seems to us theatrical now wouldn't have done so much then? Perhaps somebody else knows?

Anyhow the scream appears to be heard about 3:45am give or take 15 mins.
Only 45 mins after Hutch left the scene - not bad timing.

So do you think that Astro-Man waited in Kelly's room until Honest Geo had toddled off to kill and eviscerate her? It's difficult to think that he'd have had that much self-restraint imo.

[Wickerman]

...So do you think that Astro-Man waited in Kelly's room until Honest Geo had toddled off to kill and eviscerate her? It's difficult to think that he'd have had that much self-restraint imo.

These serial killers can be the most patient or the most impatient, depending on their mood at the time. Almost like split personalities.
The only timeline we have, as you know are the two accounts by Hutchinson. One for the police, the other for the press.

In the police account Hutch doesn't mention going up the court, just that he followed the couple after they went up the court but that he went the the court and stood there for 3/4 of an hour.
In this case Astrachan may have had no way of knowing anyone was waiting at the other end of the passage, from No. 13 there was no way of knowing, or seeing.

Whereas, in the press account Hutch mentions the incident twice. First he say's that after they went up the Court, "I went to look up the Court, to see if I could see them, but I could not".
So is this before his 3/4 hr vigil, or after?

Then, in the same article, after giving a description, once again he say's, "I went up the Court and stayed there a couple of minutes, but did not see any light in the house, or hear any noise".

That is difficult to accept if the couple had just entered No. 13., how could there be total silence?

Interestingly, there is an account in an American paper that add's a little colour to this lone vigil.
Quote:
"After the couple entered the house Hutchinson heard sounds of merriment in the girl's room and remained at the entrance to the court for fully three quarters of an hour. About 3 o'clock the sounds ceased and he walked into the court, but finding that the light in the room had been extinguished he went home."
Newark Daily Advocate, Nov. 14th, 1888.

Is this just creative license?
This seem's to fill in a couple of blank area's and makes perfect sense.
So, perhaps Astrachan did entertain Kelly while Hutchinson stood outside the end of Miller's Court.

Interestingly, Bowyer elsewhere has stated that McCarthy's shop closed at 3:00am, and this is when Hutch decided to leave.
So, was Hutch occupying himself chatting to people in and around the shop to pass the time?, he doesn't say so, but there is alot that is not mentioned in these inquests.

If you recall Hutch also mentions seeing a man go into a lodging house (Crossinghams?), perhaps this was the same man Lewis saw standing outside Crossinghams. Lewis was ahead of Hutch so she saw the man loitering, whereas Hutch might have seen the same man turn and enter the lodging house.

Regardless, it appears Astrachan entertained Kelly for a time while Hutch stood at the end of the Court.

Regards, Jon S.

[Fisherman]

Hi all!

The question as such is perhaps not very useful. You know my take: It is quite unlikely that Astrakhan man was Kellys killer, since he would have been present in Dorset Street on Thursday morning. So he could perfectly well have been real - as believed by Abberline - and nowhere near being a suspect anyway.

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Hi all!

The question as such is perhaps not very useful. You know my take: It is quite unlikely that Astrakhan man was Kellys killer, since he would have been present in Dorset Street on Thursday morning. So he could perfectly well have been real - as believed by Abberline - and nowhere near being a suspect anyway.

The best,
Fisherman

Sir, Mr Hutchinson had spent Thursday in Romford and just walked all the way back to the East End over Thursday night to arrive Friday morning.

And this quote is especially for you Fisherman..

"The witness who testified to having seen the woman enter the house with a man with a blotched face was evidently mistaken as to the night, as his description of her companion is totally unlike that of Hutchinson in every particular."
Newark Daily Advocate, Nov. 14, 1888.

:-)
Regards, Jon S.

[Sally]

Hi all!

The question as such is perhaps not very useful. You know my take: It is quite unlikely that Astrakhan man was Kellys killer, since he would have been present in Dorset Street on Thursday morning. So he could perfectly well have been real - as believed by Abberline - and nowhere near being a suspect anyway.

The best,
Fisherman

...Until, of course, having cased the joint, he came back the next night and... well, we know the rest, don't we?