If Astrakhan Man existed, how likely is he to have been Mary Kelly's murderer?

[Chris]

Just asking ...

[Abby Normal]

Just asking ...

Very likely

[Rubyretro]

Hmn -well obviously, if he had existed, then he would be the prime suspect
for being the last person known to have gone into Mary's roomm, at the right time, and not being seen coming out.

However, I amused myself last night writing a little piece from the point of view of A Man and it was very instructive (for me anyway !)
(I shall copy and paste it afterwards). I found that :
-A Man was dressed very foolishly to go looking for a prostitute in such an area -but that's not a crime.

-A man approached a prostitute in a friendly enough way to make her laugh
(they shared a joke)

-Hutchinson was very threatening in his insistent gaze and invasion of A Man's personal space for no good reason (unless you want to go along with the total wierdness of such a man in such an area -in which case why would the Ripper sneak about dressed like that ?)

-if A Man was from a better off strata of society, then Hutchinson would
appear to him like a a poor ruffian and frightening -no wonder that he tried to make him back off with a surly glare

-A Man simply walked back to a prostitute's room -but the threatening ruffian dogged his heels, trying to overhear the conversation.

-pointless lingering and lending a hankie is strange -but not a crime

-since it was obvious that Hutchinson was loitering in Dorset Street, and very interested in A Man -would A Man go on to commit a murder ?
Knowing that Hutchinson could spy by pushing a coat aside on the window, or call for help ?

'A Man didn't correspond to Lawende's description at all..

I think that A Man is innocent (it was sandwiches in THE BAG)

Mr Algenon Mann stopped to admire himself in the mirror - his white linen shirt collar his dark jacket, Light waistcoat, dark trousers, dark felt hat turned down in the middle. Button boots and gaiters with white buttons on his feet.

Defiently...or maybe insouciently ...he put on his gold horseshoe pin and best solid gold watchchain with its flashy and distinctive red stone. After all, he was only intending to visit some of the worst streets in London, trawling for a desperately poor prostitute in the early hours of the morning, so why not goad the poor buggers with a pointless display of his wealth, what ? For a moment he indulged himself with the (purely hypothetical question), as to whether anyone would recognise him from his jewellery should he have wanted to commit (heavens forbid !) a crime.'No' he decided.. I mean didn't every man who wore a gold horseshoe tie pin also own a gold watchchain with a red stone ? And didn't everyone who owned just such a watchchain, surely complete the ostentatious ensemble with just exactly such a tie pin ?
Besides -all the many people that ha came into contact with daily were far too thick to notice any gentleman's distinctive finery..not even if you circulated his description or offered a reward, he'd wager !

Algie gave a dastardly twirl of his upturned moustache ! (it was fitting that the name Algenon mean't mustachioed in french, he thought). Oh, well ! if ever they needed
a man to play Dick Turpin or someone, in a fairground sideshow, he would be just the ticket !

But not quite..he slipped on his astrakhan trimmed overcoat. Then he picked up THE BAG -sure to come in handy when picking up prostitutes.

It was raining outside -or was it ? Heck, Algenon didn't even know what day it was as he made his way over to Commercial Street.! His long coat flapped around him
(well it was always balmy at 2am, in November in London, even when the rain held off), and he was encumbered by THE BAG. He forgot all that though, when he saw what he was looking for -a passably attractive drunken young woman , who was clearly a prostitute, walking towards Thrawl Street. Quickly he tapped her on the shoulder..

.." Would a nice girl like you fancy going home alone with a surly gentleman like me, who matches the sort of description circulating of that Jack the Ripper, even down to the mysterious bag that I'm carrying -which would be perfect for carrying knives ?' Algie asked the tall red head.

She laughed, and he laughed with her. " Good job that you never passed any of them coppers, vigilantes, or do-gooding honest citizens looking for that Ripper.." she guffawed" they'd have been sure to stick their noses in your business. 'ere - what's in the bag boyo, me little leprechaun- ?"

"Oh, pots of money.." replied Algie, tears of mirth rolling down his face

"alright" she said

"you will be alright, for what I have told you' He said, creasing up. . It never ceased to amaze him that such supposedly streetwise creatures never asked to look in the bag to check what he was carrying ! Neither did they seem to suspect him of being the Ripper, despite circulating descriptions. Well, it wasn't suprising really ; the fellow Jewish man had seen him and described him as a ruffian sailor type..I mean how blind can you be?

Algenon put his arm around the woman's shoulder, clutching his bag tighter, and let himself be guided by the woman. .A man was leaning against a lampost, outside the Queen's Head Public House, staring at him intently. Algenon pulled his hat down further -that way the man wouldn't notice the jewellery or the bag ! (he resisted the impulse to protect what he had of value on him automatically, and hid his face instead). The man was very aggressive though -he bent down and invaded Algenon's body space without uttering a word. Algie shot him a surly look, as both had the time to gaze at each other.

The stranger was a weird fish -on one hand he looked like an ex-army man (and everyone knew that army men had a terrible reputation for violence). He was certainly acting in a threatening way..although he didn't utter a word. He looked like a rough, labouring type -the sort that lived in doss houses in the area.
At the same time he appeared to be only a concerned member of the public interfering. Algenon waited for the woman to address the man -reassure him that all was well..or something..

Mary (for that was her name) was silent..

She didn't look back, she didn't defuse the situation, she set off with Algie to Dorset Street, where she inexplicably stopped outside the building where she lived
and wasted time. The strange man followed hot on their heels (although Mary gave no sign of knowing the man, was she waiting for him to witness something ?)..Algie felt that the stranger was almost breathing down his neck. He was certainly close enough to hear every word.

Never had three whole minutes seemed so long ! Once the introduction was over (not even a minute) Mary didn't even want to be paid up front.all she wanted
was..a handkerchief. Algie felt his desire ebbing.. Never mind the clap -a 'common' cold was very unseductive. Suddenly, Algie felt very forlorn. What was he doing at 2 am in Dorset street with a snuffling contagious drunk and a horribly curious little poor man trying to overhear every utterance? It all seemed very bleak and no fun anymore.

Finally, Mary led him down the passage to her room. It was small, cold, and grim; She was drunk and her laughter long gone.

"give ush the money, now, darling " she said

"um" said Algenon, stalling for time" isn't that nosey little man hanging about outside ? You don't think that he'd try and spy on us through those windows do you ??
I mean I'm not sure that I could..you know..with him loitering there..Could I just sit here for a while..until he's got fed up..?...? Shouldn't take more than 3/4 of an hour..he looked as if he'd had a long tiring day..."

"Suit yourself dearie.." said Mary, "just make sure that you lock the door..I don't trust that one.."

.




.

[Sally]

I think if Astro-Man had existed, Kelly must have been killed the next morning; and Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis were correct - they did see her out and about that day.

As Ruby's story illustrates, had he seen upstanding Citizen Hutch hanging about (possibly peeping through the window in a 'subtle' fashion) and did have murderous intentions towards Kelly; he'd have had a problem - I doubt that he'd have either murdered her or waited or Hutchinson to leave.

We may know that Hutchinson only hung about or 45 minutes according to himself; but Mr A wasn't to know that, was he? For all he knew, the vigilant Hutchinson might have staked out the joint all night, then called for a copper the next morning.

Nor could Astrakhan really risk leaving - not dressed up in his best togs and riches on Dorset Street with some low-life breathing down his neck, who for all he knew, had intent to rob him.

And of course, Hutchinson could identify him - as he later did.

Bad luck for Astrakhan if he was real and he was in there with murderous intent.

So no, I don't see how he would have risked killing Kelly if he did exist and Hutchinson was straight up.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I am in a quandary, I believe Hutch, and I believe Maxwell, and to some extent Maurice Lewis, so what have we?
It has to be that the Astro- man left Kellys room, With Kelly alive and kicking, the trouble is who believes that?
Either that, or I am wrong on Hutch, and he invented Astro-man, simply because it gave him a reason, to be lingering opposite Millers court, proberly waiting for Blotchy to leave., so he could plead with Mary to let him doss, as he knew she was a ''kind soul'.
The above is highly plausible, and has to be a factor..
But in no way did he kill her, although he would have been present when the cry was heard?, and after he found out she was a victim of the Ripper, he would have been rather desperate.
So if Astro was innocent, and Hutch was innocent, then that leaves us, with the phantom market porter.. who is suspect number one.. the last person seen with the victim, by a witness who was sworn on oath..
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

One of the things we have become familiar with is that some killers have a superior attitude to those around them.
Astrachan need have no fear of Hutchinson. Hutch was a working class dosser, a little man, with no life, no job. Nobody is going to believe him.

Why should Astrachan lurk in fear of this dosser?, Astrachan carries a singularly savage weapon and knows how to use it.

If Astrachan did exist, and I think arguments against his existence are flawed, then he had to be Kelly's killer - but who was he?

Regards, Jon S.

[Barnaby]

Has anyone ever advanced the argument that the "Astrakhan Man" was just a disguise JTR used after the near identification in Mitre Square. He certainly wouldn't be the only serial killer to use a disguise. Moreover, if he was concerned that he was spotted outside, he could have burned the disguise in the fireplace and exited with a different look. I admit this is implausible but less so than some JTR theories

[Wickerman]

Has anyone ever advanced the argument that the "Astrakhan Man" was just a disguise JTR used after the near identification in Mitre Square. He certainly wouldn't be the only serial killer to use a disguise. Moreover, if he was concerned that he was spotted outside, he could have burned the disguise in the fireplace and exited with a different look. I admit this is implausible but less so than some JTR theories

Does the end really justify the means?
If his target was someone of importance, like the Queen?, maybe, but all that trouble for a back street prostitute that nobody really cares about?

A little too elaborate for my thinking.. but nice try.

Regards, Jon S.

[ChainzCooper]

One of the things we have become familiar with is that some killers have a superior attitude to those around them.
Astrachan need have no fear of Hutchinson. Hutch was a working class dosser, a little man, with no life, no job. Nobody is going to believe him.

Why should Astrachan lurk in fear of this dosser?, Astrachan carries a singularly savage weapon and knows how to use it.

If Astrachan did exist, and I think arguments against his existence are flawed, then he had to be Kelly's killer - but who was he?

Regards, Jon S.

Good posting, well stated. I stated this awhile back that these type of people have a fearlessness and as you said superior attitude which are factors as to why they can operate as a serial killer. Some people scoffed at what I posted and thought that the killer would not go around in the attire described by Hutchinson. I think the opposite is the truth here, the police (and even some today as followers of the case) were trying to make logical sense out of this whole thing when none of this case makes sense. That is that the killer must be lower class,a butcher, some scum criminal from the East End, a crazy doctor , a surgeon etc. but I think its not that when you read what George Hutchinson saw. The police made a huge mistake in not using this description to find the killer. Find the horeshoe pin, find the astracan cuffs, find the gold chain (or did we with Maybrick's watch?)
and you'll find the Ripper
Jordan

[Wickerman]

...The police made a huge mistake in not using this description to find the killer. Find the horeshoe pin, find the astracan cuffs, find the gold chain [............] and you'll find the Ripper
Jordan

Do you recall that story reported by P. C. Robert Spicer, the description of his suspect?
I think Melvin Harris investigated something about that but I don't recall what he concluded.

Regards, Jon S.

[Rubyretro]

Wickerman - I think that the suggestion of the bag is that A Man used it to carry his knives in..he would have a hard job undoing the straps in a hurry..

[Wickerman]

Wickerman - I think that the suggestion of the bag is that A Man used it to carry his knives in..he would have a hard job undoing the straps in a hurry..

Hi Ruby.
I'm not clear what you are implying. If you are suggesting Astrachan stood the chance of being assaulted by the loiterer, don't you think Astrachan would anticipate this? You say he must have known he was under surveillance when he went in.
I think I would be carrying the knife in hand when I left No. 13, if I were him, just in case.

Regards, Jon S.

[Sally]

Bag?

I thought Astro-Man had a kind of parcel with straps covered in American cloth? When did he get a bag?

IF he existed (doubtful) he was a punter - although what he was doing in Dorset Street would be a mystery. It wouldn't have been such a smart plan to be wandering around the worst street in London with your very visible wealth on display, would it? Never mind go off with some random prostitute who may very well have had a couple of thugs waiting in the wings to rob you. Hell, that sort of thing went on in lodging houses on Dorset Street, let alone the street.

None of it is very plausible. Still less plausible is the notion that Astro-Man was Jack; who had hitherto not been particulary conspicuous, but apparently now felt it appropriate to dress in the latest toff-wear and parade himself about on a street where he would:

a. Almost certainly be robbed or worse
b. be seen by some no-hoper who could later I.D. him.

I don't buy it.

[Wickerman]

I thought Astro-Man had a kind of parcel with straps covered in American cloth? When did he get a bag?

I was not sure if 'American cloth' was denim, or oil-cloth.
If, as the, JtR A-Z suggests, it was oil-cloth then it was dark, if not black, and could easily be mistaken for a black leather bag from a distance.
Hutch appeared to be the closest witness for the best description.

IF he existed (doubtful) he was a punter - although what he was doing in Dorset Street would be a mystery. It wouldn't have been such a smart plan to be wandering around the worst street in London with your very visible wealth on display, would it?

As you might know, I think there is a distinct possibility that the Bethnal-Green man & Astrachan were the same individual. Killers are known to have a dominant attitude. If he is the killer, he already thinks he's special, and dresses up special, it might be all part of his domineering attitude to those around him.

He would not stand out in the West end, but in the East end people look up to him, stand aside while he walks past. He commands attention and may even re-appear at the crime scene's to gloat over their amazement. See the terror in their faces, all the while the killer is breathing down their necks.
I'm not making this up Sally, it's what they do...

Never mind go off with some random prostitute who may very well have had a couple of thugs waiting in the wings to rob you. Hell, that sort of thing went on in lodging houses on Dorset Street, let alone the street.

It's the danger, the adrenaline, all part of the rush.

None of it is very plausible. Still less plausible is the notion that Astro-Man was Jack; who had hitherto not been particulary conspicuous, but apparently now felt it appropriate to dress in the latest toff-wear and parade himself about on a street where he would:

I don't believe modern offender profiling can help identify or describe the Ripper, for a variety of reasons I expressed elsewhere. However, profiling in our age is a definite asset. I'm sure you've read your fare share of profiling studies. That being the case how can you possibly not 'buy' what we you have just described?

Absolutely this is all conjecture, but what is so unbelievable about this scenario?

Regards, Jon S.

[belinda]

50/50