Possible New Suspect-how to go about research please?

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Thank You Monty, I shall add these places to my marked map I have been compiling, that is very useful. I wonder if there were any of these places that specifically were pork butchers? I am very grateful for your input

Hi Kerrypn,
Have you read the piece on the residents of Butcher's Row in Whitechapel here on Casebook?


http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Butchers'_Row_and_its_Residents_-_People

It might spark some ideas for you. It gives a list of the residents and a mini biog on each. Also, there was a fledgling organisation for Whitechapel butchers at the time (which tried to fight for the rights of members) and if you could track that down you might find your own suspect was involved? I'm sure others on this site will have the name of the organisation if you ask nicely!

[Canopy]

Hello!

I know that you've probably "done them to death" but I'm also a member of Genealogical websites and will have a "dig" for you to see whether "fresh eyes" turn up anything new...I don't hold my breath on this matter as pretty sure you've already searched well, but will post again if anything catches my attention...

Otherwise, well done for finding another possible suspect and taking the time to research your findings. There is no rule that says that the Ripper was one of those suspected by the police at the time - they were only human with limited resources given today's technology!

I will have a good look for you but, if I find nothing new, well done anyway!
C.

[kerrypn]

Thank you for the link to Butcher's Row-well worth the read through. I am struggling with the "pork butcher". I imagine as he has listed it on each census it is a specialised area and yet I can find no definite idea of where a pork butcher might be! I note many Butchers row butchers appeared to be carcass butchers. I am still more favoured to Spitalfields than Smithfields given that Smithfields is even further away from Thomas Street than Spitalfields. However he may also have worked as an underling in any pork butchers shop. I wonder if there are any accounts of the work of a pork butcher around?

Canopy, I would be very grateful for your input and checking back in case I have missed something/misinterpreted data. I am interested in hearing anyone's views on what(limited) pieces of information are available.

Regards

K

[Robert]

You may find this article helpful.

http://www3.surrey.ac.uk/Arts/CRONEM/CRONEM-papers09/Wuestner.pdf

[kerrypn]

Robert, you are fast becoming indispensible to me! Thank you

EDIT: Very interesting article Robert, especially the part about them sometimes remaining open "out of hours" and serving the first takeaway food, affordable etc. I wonder how prevalent these were in Whitechapel? Thank you very much

[kerrypn]

Well, if I have located George's birth record correctly, and I am still not 100% on this-his twin was called Maria Katharina Gruner. Her birth record also has no father recorded. She married a Christoph Wilhelm Rupp in 1865. I believe her mother, Barbara Gruner, went to America-prior to the wedding-she shows up on the American census in 1860 in Missouri.I am going to see if I can locate a record for the date she went to America. It would be interesting to know if she went whilst both children were still minors, and if so who cared for them. That would suggest both parents absent. I am unclear as yet if her daughter and husband went also. Barbara was born to Lorenz Gruner and Maria Agnes Sonntag in 1806.

[Canopy]

Hello again kerrypn,

I had a "dig" for you and came across the marriage as noted by Robert: Elizabeth Catherine Gruner (b.1873), 28th December 1890, St.George's German Lutheran Church, Battersea, Surrey, England. Spouse: John Andreas Michael Emmert.

Interestingly, Elizabeth/Catherine's father is listed as "George Heinrich (rather than Henry) Gruner". This would probably explain the "Hy" you mentioned in an earlier post - I bet they couldn't spell Heinrich!

I will let you know if I find anything else.
C.

[Canopy]

Me again!

I managed to find "Elizabeth Emmert" on the 1901 census. She is listed as 28, wife and living in St. Pancras, Regent's Park, London. Being that her place and date of birth are listed as 1873, Whitechapel I suspect very strongly that Robert did indeed find George's daughter.

I also found a marriage for George as follows:
George Heinrich Gruner b.1838, 28th August 1870, St.George's German Lutheran Church, Battersea, Surrey, England.
Father: Johann Heinrich Gruner
Spouse: Catharina Lisette (would explain why she is called "Lizzie" on the 1891 census) Lauth

...I think she made her name more "English sounding" and adopted the Catherine Elizabeth identity in moving to England.

Unless there was another George Heinrich Gruner running around Whitechapel with the same birth year as your possible suspect, then he married Rachel Rebecca Horne after Catherine's death during the first quarter of 1899. I can't find any records of him marrying anybody else though - the other "George Gruners" I found were too young for them to be him.

I will keep looking but that's all I've found so far.

C.

[Canopy]

Sorry, I don't appear to be able to edit my previous posts in order to put all of the information in one place! I am probably missing something but, as it stands, am having to keep posting new messages when I think of something new...Sorry! I'm not trying to take over the thread - just don't know how to add to previous as no longer showing an "edit" option.

Anyway, I was thinking it is possible that though Johann is listed as George's father on his wedding entry he may not be listed on his birth certificate if he isn't his biological father. "Gruner" may be the name given through marriage alone and nothing to do with blood (the very same thing has happened in my own family tree - a child was given the name of my g.g.g.grandfather though he'd died years before he was born and his birth certificate shows a completely different name (that matches early census records) to that he is later given on the census! Unless that branch of my family go and research, they will forever believe themselves to share the same blood as my g.g.g. grandfather - not true!) Also, in order to appear on a birth certificate (if the law in Germany is anything like British law and was the same then as now...) you have to register in person if you wish to be noted as a parent on such records. The alternative is that Johann was working (or similar) and so couldn't attend the registry in person to be included on the documentation...

Just a few thoughts to offer some explanations as to why no father is noted on George's birth certificate despite the fact that he clearly has an idea who his father is if the marriage listing is correct.

All the best,

C.

[kerrypn]

Thanks Canopy, now the father being listed is of great interest, as I have not been wholly convinced I have the correct birth entry, so I will research based on this father to see if anything else comes up.

Youve done really well pulling up these details for me, thank you. The marriage in 1870 would certainly fit-as they appear on the 1871 census but I couldnt find a "pair" on the 1861-so now I can search either for a later entry to the UK or seperate census listings.

Thank you so much for your input, much appreciated

[Garry Wroe]

Sorry! I'm not trying to take over the thread - just don't know how to add to previous as no longer showing an "edit" option.

The edit function is only available for the thirty-minute period following the submission of a post, Canopy.

[Canopy]

The edit function is only available for the thirty-minute period following the submission of a post, Canopy.

Thank you for letting me know Garry - quite relieved it wasn't just me being ICT-dim!

C.

[Canopy]

Thanks Canopy, now the father being listed is of great interest, as I have not been wholly convinced I have the correct birth entry, so I will research based on this father to see if anything else comes up.

Youve done really well pulling up these details for me, thank you. The marriage in 1870 would certainly fit-as they appear on the 1871 census but I couldnt find a "pair" on the 1861-so now I can search either for a later entry to the UK or seperate census listings.

Thank you so much for your input, much appreciated

No worries! I enjoy a good mystery (hence why I've joined the forum!) Glad that some of the things I found may help you in researching further.

I will continue to search but, if nothing new turns up, GOOD LUCK!

C.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Kerrypn,

St George's German Lutheran Church was in Whitechapel. No such church in Battersea. The marriage records are mislabelled.

Residence at Mason's Court in 1871 was off High Street, Mile End New Town in the Whitechapel Registration district. (click for archive listing)

1868 map showing High Street a continuation of Great Garden St running northward off Whitechapel Road.





So all the locations, Mason's Court, Thomas St, Vine Court, and the German church on Little Alie Street, were close by. You can google St George's Whitehapel, it stilll stands and is used for concerts.

[Canopy]

Well now, I have nothing new to offer and was just "popping by" to see how your research was going kerrypn. Despite no "updates" from you yet, I am glad that I "stopped by" as the "Battersea" thing was bothering me as far as the information I gave goes...THANK YOU ROY for putting my mind at rest!!! I am now 99.9% confident that I found the correct marriage for George (hence giving the CORRECT name of the father) as far as records show.

All the best,

C.