Possible New Suspect-how to go about research please?

[kerrypn]

Hello

First post so please be gentle! I have a person I found a little out about using the census etc, and I believe he could be a possible suspect-although I realise it is very unlikely he is JTR-and wondered how I could go about researching this person, even if it is a pointless exercise I would still like to learn about him. He was born in Germany, and I cant find his birth record.

Can anyone advise how I might find out more about what he looked like/what he was like where he worked( I know his profession)

Thanks very much in advance

[belinda]

Genealogical websites might help

[kerrypn]

Thank you, I did most of my research on ancestry and have exhausted this avenue-if you could recommend another to try I would be very grateful

[Chris]

I assume you want to keep the identity of the man under wraps for the moment, but people may be able to advise on possible sources if you can post some more information about him.

It may be worth searching for a naturalisation record if you haven't already done so:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/naturalisation.htm

[kerrypn]

Only for fear of being laughed at!! I would be extremely grateful if anyone was interested enough to help

Shall I post what bits I know and if anyone can advise on how to get more information/can help get information I would be really grateful

[Bob Hinton]

Research

Only for fear of being laughed at!! I would be extremely grateful if anyone was interested enough to help

Shall I post what bits I know and if anyone can advise on how to get more information/can help get information I would be really grateful

If you want to pm me I'll take a crack at it.

[kerrypn]

OK, so this is what I know.

His name is George (Henry?/Hy?) Gruner. He was born in c.1839 in Niederstettin Germany. At some point priot ot coming to England he marries(this is open to interpretation as I cannot find marriage record) an Elizabeth Catharine-her surname is probably Laut, I will explain this later.

I am unsure when he arrives in England- on 6th May 1857 in Southampton a Mr and Mrs Gruner are said to arrive, but I am not clear if this is the same one.

1861-No census record found for either husband or wife.

1871-Mistranscribed "croner" on census-lives 8 Mason Court and is listed as a Pork Butcher. Also living there is his wife, Eliza Catherine Gruner a cloth cutter, and his Mother In Law,Catherine Laut, 46, an unemployed slippermaker born in Prussia.

1881-Lives 4 Vine Court, Whitechapel.
Seems to be sharing with Peter Monsyner b.1819 Germany and Elizabeth Monsyner b.1820 Germany. His wife remains with him as does his mother in law. He now has a daughter, Katherine Gruner b.1873 London. He is still a pork butcher.

Sometime between the 1881 census and the 1891, the family move to 4 Thomas Street. By the 1891 census he is listed as living with his wife and mother in law. The daughter has vanished. I can find no further trace of her in workhouses, marriages, deaths.

As an aside at this point, George was trialled on 05/05/1890 for "Larceny as a servant and receiving" and is sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.

When George is released he shows up on 1891 census as being at 4 Thomas Street.

His wife Catherine ?dies in 1892 in westham London. Unsure of cause. She would be 41.

Mother in Law ?dies in St Pancras in 1903.

By the 1901 census, George lives as a Journeyman Pork Butcher(I think this means an apprentice, which is odd given his experience) at 52/53 Minories St botolph without Aldgate. No sign of any relations there, and given the records it seems to be some kind of workhouse/lodgings.

Dies JAS 1922.

I know this might seem a bit far fetched. I suppose what interested me is his proximity to the first canonical (sp?) victim's murder. I have guessed George may have worked at Spitalfields Market, but if there are any butchers known elsewhere I would be very interested. Also very interested as George did end up serving some prison time after MJK murder-I am not sure how long prior to trial he would likely be detained however. Also, the fact his Mother in law continued to live with them and his daughter "falling off the radar" seem interesting, although I am not sure why!!!

There is also the fact I am sure I read at least one witness refer to the fact they thought JTR might be German? I definitely read foreign.
I also found it interesting that after his wife's death, he moved closer to the scene of the majority of the murder sites, although this could be of course due to the fact he DID work at Spitalfields and it was more convenient.
I do find it interesting that he seemed to completely cut ties with the mother in law despite living togather all those years.

Anyway, this may all be a load of tosh, but it is of interest to me-if anyone feels the urge to help find more out about this man I would be very happy.


Also just as another point of interest, there is some evidence that George married several women after the death of his wife in very quick succession-and probably without divorce, although I need to confirm and clarify this.

[kerrypn]

Sorry duplicated

[belinda]

Shipping records may help. Done a lot of Genealogy and have found some people that way

[kerrypn]

Thanks Belinda. I did find a Mr and Mrs Gruner in shipping resords, but am almost 100% convinced this isnt them. Cant find any other records-and no records at all for the Mother in Law??

[Hunter]

Hi Kerrypn,

And welcome to the boards. I'm sure you will find many helpful people here.

That George is listed in the 1901 census as a journeyman pork butcher means that he is experienced in his trade... as opposed to an apprentice, who is still learning it.

Good luck with your research.

[kerrypn]

Thanks Hunter for the welcome and for the info re journeyman- I thought it seemed very odd indeed!!!!

[Robert]

Hi Kerrypn

I'm sorry I can't go into this very deeply, as I'm tied up at the moment, but your chap seems to have remarried Q1 1899 Whitechapel to Rachel Rebecca Horne. In 1911 they are at 3, The Circus, Minories.
George Henry Gruner, 72, Butcher, German.
Rachel Rebecca Gruner, wife, 52, born Walworth.
Alice Minnie Horne, daughter (should be step daughter), 20, Machine (illegible), born Walworth.
Emily Susan Saunders "distant relative".

The Gruners say that they have had 6 children but I think there is some confusion there. I doubt if a man in his 60s fathered six children on a woman in her 40s!
Actually the number of children is written next to Rachel's name, while George's birth tally is blank. Rachel probably had 6 children from her previous marriage.

[Robert]

I may have the wrong one, but the 1911 George Gruner was listed with Rachel and Minnie at 29 and 30 King St, Aldgate in 1901.

[Robert]

Perhaps George was listed twice in 1901, once at his home and once at his place of work.