Possible New Suspect-how to go about research please?

[The Grave Maurice]

Welcome, kerrypn

George Gruner, eh? Well done. I've always suspected him.

Seriously, you've come to the right place for the sort of advice you are seeking. We've got people here who can wring every bit of information out of a census or any other useful source. But I'm not one of them.

I do have a question, though: are we sure that Spitalfields Market was in the meat business in the 1880s? I'm pretty sure it still was in the middle part of the century, but I think it might have become exclusively fruit and veg by the time of the WMs. I'll have a look around some of the sources tonight and see what turns up.

[Garry Wroe]

By the 1901 census, George lives as a Journeyman Pork Butcher(I think this means an apprentice, which is odd given his experience) at 52/53 Minories St botolph without Aldgate.

Not an apprentice, Kerrypn, a qualified tradesman who worked for others rather than operating his own business.

[Errata]

I've been to Niederstettin. Lovely town.

You might try church records. Don't forget to check Catholic churches as well, as Germany still had some stubborn pockets of it. Maybe court records?

[Chris]

Actually the number of children is written next to Rachel's name, while George's birth tally is blank. Rachel probably had 6 children from her previous marriage.

I think those details were meant to be given only by married women (though fortunately quite a few others gave them too), so it would be correct that they would be left blank on George's line. In theory I think they should relate to the woman's present marriage only.

Ironically, I was about to post that judging by the information kerrypn posted, most of the obvious sources had been exhausted. I was going to suggest trying newspapers, though perhaps that's where the conviction in 1890 came from?

[kerrypn]

Thank you for all the replies and the info from the 1911 census.

I retrieved the conviction from criminal records on ancestry-my next stop was going to be the poor registers but this will need to be done manually.

I am very interested in the "missing" daughter. The german records I have managed to access for Geroge's birth are scatty and unclear, so any advice here would be great. I cannot find any record of marriage for him either.

Re Spitalfields-no I am not 100% that butchers used this area, but alternative suggestions for the locations of butchers would be much appreciated.

His conviction seems a bit odd too, given his profession.

[Robert]

Hi all

I think that Elizabeth Catharine Gruner marries John Andreas Emmert, a German baker, in 1890. Their census refs are :

1891 - RG12/1321/30/53
1901 - RG13/130/10/12
Grandma is with them in 1901.

I like to think of the family pooling their resources and selling sausage rolls.

[Robert]

By 1911 they had 7 children still living.

[kerrypn]

Hi all

I think that Elizabeth Catharine Gruner marries John Andreas Emmert, a German baker, in 1890. Their census refs are :

1891 - RG12/1321/30/53
1901 - RG13/130/10/12
Grandma is with them in 1901.

I like to think of the family pooling their resources and selling sausage rolls.

Is this George's Daughter? I thought her name was just Katherine Gruner-the mother is Eliza Catherine Gruner, but she is listed in the 1891 census as living at Thomas Street with George. Thanks for the info, I will look into these. Not having much luck with finding out anything about George TBH-

[Robert]

Hi Kerry

It's quite common for people to list their children in the censuses under second name instead of first. They even give them affectionate diminutives sometimes. I think the presence of Grandma in 1901 clinches the ID. I cannot supply the birth for George's daughter, but her marriage seems fine.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi kerrypn

Thanks for pursuing this research. I have to say that George Gruner, a local pork butcher, does not seem to be a particularly strong suspect. Why would you suspect the man other than that he lived in the area at the time?

Chris

[kerrypn]

Thanks Robert for that clarification, can't you tell I am new to research!

Hi Chris

I just stumbled on this man and whilst I have absolutely no evidence that he was JTR, I believe he has a couple of things about him that make hima possible suspect.

Firstly, his residential proximity to the first canonical(sp?) victim's murder. Of course this may be a complete no go, as I have not formed clearly my own opinion on who was the first JTR victim yet, I am fairly new to the suspects, so I may end up talking myself out of this anyway. However, it would be very helpful if I could establish where George worked as this would give me better insight as to the route/route George may have walked home-I imagine if he worked where I suspect he worked, he would have taken Whitechapel Road and potentially have passed the other murder sites. Of course this doesnt make him JTR either, but could potentially place him in the right area.

Secondly, his profession. I am of the opinion that JTR was not medically skilled but certainly had knife skills, probably from his employment. Of course the fact he is a pork butcher does not make him JTR, but does give George the necessary knife skills I believe JTR possessed.

Thirdly, I believe I have found George's birth record. IF (and the reocrds are sketchy and need further clarifcation, although area, date and name are right) George was born to a Barbara Gruner as a twin. Father not listed, suggesting born out of wedlock/father was absent. This would fit with some of the psychological profiling work that has been compiled on JTR. Of course this again does not prove George is JTR, but strikes me as intersting.

Fourthly, George was imprisoned a short time after the MJK murder for a completely unrelated crime for 12 months.Very soon after his release, his wife died and George had to move and as discussed and kindly researched by other members, remarried eventually in 1899.

Fifthly, George was German-I remember distinctly that one witness stated they thought a man seen with one of the victims was German-I really must chase this up as I havent had time yet.

And lastly, if I accept the Lusk letter as genuine, "catch me when you can" has been infered as a german sounding phase as opposed to "catch me if you can"-this I believe I read in the dissertation on here on Letters from Hell, which was very interesting. Again, this may be a complete no go as I havent formed my own opinion on this yet-whether accepting the letters as genuine would complete change the profile of JTR, whether they were merely hoaxes or whether some were genuine and some werent. SO again I may talk myself out of this point.

In terms of true hard evidence I have none, but I find that this man has a combination of very interesting points that I would like to explore further.
His proximity to the area makes him possible-the same can be said for almost every single person in Whitechapel at the time. But the little "bits" I have managed to pull together make him at least worthy of further discussion, ( I hope!)

I welcome with open arms more experienced views and help, as I am just a beginner

Its not as bad as the Lewis Carroll theory surely!
Of course, if anyone has a photograph of him actually commiting the crimes, that would be much easier for me to convict him!

hope that answers why I consider him of interest Chris, thank you for asking as it has made me think through my point!


EDIT:The dissertation I refer to is "Inspiration from Hell", which states that the phrase "catch me when you can " does not appear in the "Letters from Hell" book it discusses, but the phrase does appear to be of German origin.

[Robert]

Hi Kerry

Don't worry, you're doing very well.

I am attempting to contact a member of the family, and if successful I will try to link him up with you.

[kerrypn]

Oh my goodness! That is amazing you have managed to trace down to a living relative. Although I am not sure how I would react if someone contacted me and said they suspected my ancestor of being Jack the Ripper.

This George is giving me a headache. Why are the German records so unclear!

[Monty]

Hi Kerry,

Smithfield meat market is the predominant meat market but yes, Spitalfields did sell meat.

Butcher Row, Aldgate, had a fair few butchers also.

There would have been no shortage of place to work if you were a Butcher.

Monty

[kerrypn]

Thank You Monty, I shall add these places to my marked map I have been compiling, that is very useful. I wonder if there were any of these places that specifically were pork butchers? I am very grateful for your input