Name your top 3 suspects with top 3 reasons why you think so...

[ChainzCooper]

Ben wrote:
I've never heard it claimed in any psychological study that an individual can be wholly without fear.
I think one can be wholly without fear after a very traumatic event, like surviving a plane crash, a bad automobile accident, or a shark attack, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with serial killers. They choose a pretty safe path, by attacking victims weaker than themselves.

They're attacking the type of victim that attracts them. Do you honestly believe guys like this are going to go after some 300 pound Gangster rapper or something? They're not, they go after who sexually attracts them ,who gets in their way, whoever gets them to where they want to be, etc. You're confusing what I'm saying here just because I speak of someones mental or physical attributes doesn't mean I'm complimenting or 'romanticizing' them. It means I'm giving an honest assessment of who they are. I'll give you an example to help me clarify what I mean and its kind of a personal one. I knew this girl in High School who I dated briefly. We actually met in Church, she attended a prestigious school in my town which is reserved for those who are extremely academically gifted. Only a select few (several hundred) in the entire state I live in are chosen to attend this place. Simply put, you have to be incredibly smart to get in. Well she was extremely attractive and everyone (My Mom included but she just assumed) thought she was so great because she attended this school. She was really good looking and so we went out a few times.Well to make a long story short it turns out she was this completely amoral person.What everyone failed to understand (myself included being the young guy I was) was that just because she went to this school it didn't make her a good person. They confused intelligence, book smarts, a willingness to learn, wanting to obtain many Degrees,trying to get into all these great colleges, even that she attended church with morality.Its not always one in the same and on the same level for people. Wow I kind of opened up with this one ha Good to talk to you guys after a hot day of work
Jordan

[ChainzCooper]

With Richard Kuklinski it's different. He was not a serial killer, but a hit man. Still, I'm sure he would have p.ed in his pants if confronted with some of the waves here, or with a great white shark!
ChainzCooper wrote:
what these guys are able to do, the things which most of wouldn't be capable of.
It's not that we wouldn't be able to do these acts they did out of “lack of courage“. It's that we have a moral compass, and we chose not to, nor do we need to commit acts of violent crime to personalize ourselves as an identity.

I guess you've never seen The Ice Man Tapes in which Kuklinski is interviewed at length and in depth about his life.He was not at all different from what I am speaking about he is the same type of very rare killer. If you think for a second he ever peed in his pants about anything in his life you are sadly mistaken. You're confusing courageness and bravery with the instincts they are able to turn off which I am speaking about. Again, most of us can't do this and its hard for people to understand this aspect of Serial Killers.
Cool talking to you Maria
Jordan

[mariab]

Ben wrote:
I've never heard it claimed in any psychological study that an individual can be wholly without fear.
I think one can be wholly without fear after a very traumatic event, like surviving a plane crash, a bad automobile accident, or a shark attack, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with serial killers. They choose a pretty safe path, by attacking victims weaker than themselves.

[Ben]

It's not an absence of fear that characterizes the behaviour of many serial killers, but rather an ability to persevere in spite of it. I've never heard it claimed in any psychological study that an individual can be wholly without fear.

[mariab]

With Richard Kuklinski it's different. He was not a serial killer, but a hit man. Still, I'm sure he would have p.ed in his pants if confronted with some of the waves here, or with a great white shark!
ChainzCooper wrote:
what these guys are able to do, the things which most of wouldn't be capable of.
It's not that we wouldn't be able to do these acts they did out of “lack of courage“. It's that we have a moral compass, and we chose not to, nor do we need to commit acts of violent crime to personalize ourselves as an identity.

[ChainzCooper]

Hi Ben,
I was referring more to what Chainzcooper said, i.e. the supposed “fearlesness“ factor while committing murder acts. By the way I'm currently surfing in South Africa, where great white sharks abund in the water, and I've met my share of REALLY fearless males, who accessorily haven't murdered anybody (unless you count fishing)...!

I'm not romanticizing anything theres a difference between being heroic and courageous and what these guys are able to do, the things which most of wouldn't be capable of. I guarantee you if you would have asked Richard Kuklinski if he was ever scared of anyone he would have looked at you like that was the dumbest question ever. Its not a supposed fearlessness that these guys have its just a fact and there have been studies backing this up.
Jordan

[mariab]

Hi Ben,
I was referring more to what Chainzcooper said, i.e. the supposed “fearlesness“ factor while committing murder acts. By the way I'm currently surfing in South Africa, where great white sharks abund in the water, and I've met my share of REALLY fearless males, who accessorily haven't murdered anybody (unless you count fishing)...!

[Ben]

Guys, please don't romanticize serial killers!

I think it's glaringly obvious that I'm not doing anything of the sort, Maria.

I'm not disputing that serial killers are cowardly dirty scumbags. I'm only pointing out that they will invariably take steps to increase the chances of success at their evil cowardly and scumbag-like task, whilst minimising the chances of capture in the process. To highlight a fact on record isn't "romanticizing" anything.

All the best,
Ben

[mariab]

To Ben and Chainzcooper:
Guys, please don't romanticize serial killers! Serial killers are about the dirtiest scumbugs to ever have walked on this earth, and it's not a coincidence that prison inmates can't stand them and consider them as the lowest lowlife, next to child-molesters and rapists. Remember how Jeffrey Dahmer ended? That's why imprisoned serial killers (like Bundy in Texas) are generally held up in solitary confinement.
Also the so-called “fearlessness“ in the execution of serial killers' acts is a myth. Bundy was crying like a baby when the time came to be executed, and only then did he start contacting the police, to “share information“ about his own crimes, and “to help them catch the Green River Killer“. Why do you think that most serial killers almost invariably choose young prostitutes as their victims? For the availability and vulnerability, also these women are not going to be missed by anybody. It's too much like shooting fish in a barrel!
As for the Ripper, it's true that he “worked“ outside and was quick and skilled with a knife, but from the general food chain, he absolutely chose the weakest link: elderly and drunken prostitutes. And if it's him who did Stride, then we have proof that he escaped the scene, scared off by a single horse carriage. This has nothing to do with “being brave“.

[Ben]

Good talking to you too, Jordan! Hope you're enjoying the discussions.

I fear you may be missing my point slightly. I wasn't disputing the ability of a serial killer to "turn off morality like a lightswitch". I was addressing the issue of fear of capture, and the extent to which serial killers adopt various measures to prevent it. They might possess a high capacity for risk and daring, but that doesn't make them oblivious to the possibility of capture, nor are they likely to engage in any activity likely to jeopardize their chances of pulling off an efficient crime.

If you're hunting someone like prey,like the killer you are, you're not going to be worrying about if someone might accost you and/or rob you.

I disagree.

If you're hunting in an area in which "robbing" is commonplace, why carry around an exposed bulging wallet (for example), if you know full well that it stands a good chance of interfering with your killing objective? All it does is hinder the chances of success at that objective and increase the chances of capture, and the argument that serial killers (or psychopaths in general) have some mental block to these considerations because they're so intent on murder is not borne out by any psychological study I've read.

Stephen Wright was a tried and tested local, known by some of the prostitutes, who often wore one of those luminous worker's jackets of the type seen regularly around Britain's roads, in order to appear as unthreatening and "everyday" as possible. He may have been intent on killing, but he wasn't oblivious to the need to minimise the risk of appearing too conspicuous when on the prowl.

Best regards,
Ben

[Rubyretro]

You have to remember that Serial Killers have this fearlessness about them that most of us don't have. He wouldn't have been scared of anybody walking the streets he is there for his objective which is to kill
Jordan

I`m sure, however the person wearing both the horseshoe pin and the
watchchain with it`s unusual red stone stamp should have been identifiable
to family, a maid, shopkeepers, work contacts, prostitutes etc etc from newspaper descriptions.

Accepting that A Man existed and was fearless enough to wear them when picking up a victim, their identification by a witness should have been enough to catch him -which is why I think that Abberline was initially so excited by Hutch`s statement. If no one came forward, then that may be one reason that the description was quickly discounted.

[ChainzCooper]

I don't think that really follows, Jordan. Yes, a serial killer might possess a heightened sense of risk and daring, but that needn't render him oblivious to the perils of courting unnecessary danger for no good reason. He might have every reason to be scared of certain types walking the streets and act accordingly. If the majority of serial killers were truly devoid of all fear, they wouldn't attempt to cover their tracks, and yet we see this happening with regularity.

Best regards,
Ben

Psychologists would tell you differently. Theres a difference between not wanting to get caught and covering you tracks and showing fearlessness in the execution of your murders. Serial Killers have this ability to turn off morality like a lightswitch, you know, the difference between right and wrong that most of us have. The same thing goes for being scared in situations its just like walking outdoors to them. Where normal people would see elements of danger,freezing and tensing up ,not being able to commit this act, this being wrong etc a killer such as this sees it as just like a stroll around the block. Did you see Dennis Rader's confession in court? It was just like he was ordering lunch when describing these horrid things he did. If you're hunting someone like prey,like the killer you are, you're not going to be worrying about if someone might accost you and/or rob you. You're going to have one main objective which is to kill. Its hard for people (like us) who don't have it to really understand it. I have a co-worker of mine who watches the news regularly. I always hear comments from him when he sees something like this on the news like a girl being raped or someones whos murdered, he always says the same thing, 'Who would want to do that?' What he always fails to understand is that hes seeing the act through his eyes and not a criminals. Hes thinking as he would think about something like that and not how a psychopath would. They play by a different set of rules, so to speak, than we do.
Cool talking to you Ben I don't think we've spoken yet I'm new around here!
Jordan

[ChainzCooper]

I don't think that really follows, Jordan. Yes, a serial killer might possess a heightened sense of risk and daring, but that needn't render him oblivious to the perils of courting unnecessary danger for no good reason. He might have every reason to be scared of certain types walking the streets and act accordingly. If the majority of serial killers were truly devoid of all fear, they wouldn't attempt to cover their tracks, and yet we see this happening with regularity.

Best regards,
Ben

Psychologists would tell you differently. Serial Killers have this ability to turn off morality like a lightswitch, you know, the difference between right and wrong that most of us have. The same thing goes for being scared in situations its just like walking outdoors to them. Where normal people would see elements of danger,freezing and tensing up ,not being able to commit this act, this being wrong etc a killer such as this sees it as just like a stroll around the block. Did you see Dennis Rader's confession in court? It was just like he was ordering lunch when describing these horrid things he did. If you're hunting someone like prey like the killer you are you're not going to be worrying about if someone might accost you and/or rob you. Its hard for people (like us) who don't have it to really understand it. I have a co-worker of mine who watches the news regularly. I always hear comments from him when he sees something like this on the news like a girl being raped or someones whos murdered, he always says the same thing, 'Who would want to do that?' What he always fails to understand is that hes seeing the act through his eyes and not a criminals. Hes thinking as he would think about something like that and not how a psychopath would. They play by a different set of rules, so to speak, than we do.
Cool talking to you Ben I don't think we've spoken yet I'm new around here!
Jordan

[Ben]

You have to remember that Serial Killers have this fearlessness about them that most of us don't have. He wouldn't have been scared of anybody walking the streets

I don't think that really follows, Jordan. Yes, a serial killer might possess a heightened sense of risk and daring, but that needn't render him oblivious to the perils of courting unnecessary danger for no good reason. He might have every reason to be scared of certain types walking the streets and act accordingly. If the majority of serial killers were truly devoid of all fear, they wouldn't attempt to cover their tracks, and yet we see this happening with regularity.

Best regards,
Ben

[Chris]

This is a picture of Samuel Herbert Dougal, the Moat Farm Murderer, in whom nobody is interested apart from me, I think.

It's nice to hear that, because while transcribing Henry Cox's memoirs I've sometimes got the impression that no one is interested in them except me and Henry's relations. At any rate there is an instalment on Dougal (who was arrested by Cox), though admittedly it probably won't add a great deal to anyone's knowledge of the Moat Farm Murder.