Name your top 3 suspects with top 3 reasons why you think so...

[Debra A]

Phil -I will give you that one, although I've been trawling sites on Victorian tiepins etc etc etc...and never found one example. Nor in a photo of Victorian men.

Ruby,I'm almost sure that Sgt Thick was wearing one in the H division C.I.D photo from 1889.
I've seen an interview in an American paper with two famous LVP boxers, both of whom fought in the East End at some point. One was described as wearing a horseshoe tie pin, the other an overcoat trimmed with astrachan.
Horseshoe shaped jewellery seems to have been popular amongst people involved in racing in some way, sometimes given as prizes at racecourses too.

[m_w_r]

I've been trawling sites on Victorian tiepins etc etc etc...and never found one example. Nor in a photo of Victorian men.

Hi,

This is a picture of Samuel Herbert Dougal, the Moat Farm Murderer, in whom nobody is interested apart from me, I think.

The picture was taken in 1902 or 1903 - I can't remember off the top of my head. Anyway, perhaps it isn't strictly Victorian, depending on how you draw the line, but you can be pretty sure that Dougal's manners and habits, such as they were, established themselves in Victorian times.



Regards,

Mark

[Harry the Hawker]

There's this famous one of a younger Cream with a horse-shoe pin.

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=10&pos=-439

[Rubyretro]

I think that I already said that I accept they existed (but great Thanks for the photo and reference -I even believe that HUtch had seen one

I don`t believe that they were commonly worn in tandem with a gold watch chain, with a red `stamp` attached ; that has to be narrowing the field

[curious4]

Horseshoe pin etc

Always thought that whoever this was, and provided the description was accurate, was taking a huge risk walking in that part of town. You would have thought he would have been knocked down and robbed the moment he set foot in the East End. He must have been very sure he was safe for some reason. If Abberline was impressed by his description there should have been something in it. At the time night vision would have been much better - people were not surrounded by electric lights round the clock as we are. (read Mr Pickwick´s unfortunate escapade with the new "patent" lamp.)

[ChainzCooper]

You have to remember that Serial Killers have this fearlessness about them that most of us don't have. He wouldn't have been scared of anybody walking the streets he is there for his objective which is to kill
Jordan

[Chris]

This is a picture of Samuel Herbert Dougal, the Moat Farm Murderer, in whom nobody is interested apart from me, I think.

It's nice to hear that, because while transcribing Henry Cox's memoirs I've sometimes got the impression that no one is interested in them except me and Henry's relations. At any rate there is an instalment on Dougal (who was arrested by Cox), though admittedly it probably won't add a great deal to anyone's knowledge of the Moat Farm Murder.

[Ben]

You have to remember that Serial Killers have this fearlessness about them that most of us don't have. He wouldn't have been scared of anybody walking the streets

I don't think that really follows, Jordan. Yes, a serial killer might possess a heightened sense of risk and daring, but that needn't render him oblivious to the perils of courting unnecessary danger for no good reason. He might have every reason to be scared of certain types walking the streets and act accordingly. If the majority of serial killers were truly devoid of all fear, they wouldn't attempt to cover their tracks, and yet we see this happening with regularity.

Best regards,
Ben

[ChainzCooper]

I don't think that really follows, Jordan. Yes, a serial killer might possess a heightened sense of risk and daring, but that needn't render him oblivious to the perils of courting unnecessary danger for no good reason. He might have every reason to be scared of certain types walking the streets and act accordingly. If the majority of serial killers were truly devoid of all fear, they wouldn't attempt to cover their tracks, and yet we see this happening with regularity.

Best regards,
Ben

Psychologists would tell you differently. Serial Killers have this ability to turn off morality like a lightswitch, you know, the difference between right and wrong that most of us have. The same thing goes for being scared in situations its just like walking outdoors to them. Where normal people would see elements of danger,freezing and tensing up ,not being able to commit this act, this being wrong etc a killer such as this sees it as just like a stroll around the block. Did you see Dennis Rader's confession in court? It was just like he was ordering lunch when describing these horrid things he did. If you're hunting someone like prey like the killer you are you're not going to be worrying about if someone might accost you and/or rob you. Its hard for people (like us) who don't have it to really understand it. I have a co-worker of mine who watches the news regularly. I always hear comments from him when he sees something like this on the news like a girl being raped or someones whos murdered, he always says the same thing, 'Who would want to do that?' What he always fails to understand is that hes seeing the act through his eyes and not a criminals. Hes thinking as he would think about something like that and not how a psychopath would. They play by a different set of rules, so to speak, than we do.
Cool talking to you Ben I don't think we've spoken yet I'm new around here!
Jordan

[ChainzCooper]

I don't think that really follows, Jordan. Yes, a serial killer might possess a heightened sense of risk and daring, but that needn't render him oblivious to the perils of courting unnecessary danger for no good reason. He might have every reason to be scared of certain types walking the streets and act accordingly. If the majority of serial killers were truly devoid of all fear, they wouldn't attempt to cover their tracks, and yet we see this happening with regularity.

Best regards,
Ben

Psychologists would tell you differently. Theres a difference between not wanting to get caught and covering you tracks and showing fearlessness in the execution of your murders. Serial Killers have this ability to turn off morality like a lightswitch, you know, the difference between right and wrong that most of us have. The same thing goes for being scared in situations its just like walking outdoors to them. Where normal people would see elements of danger,freezing and tensing up ,not being able to commit this act, this being wrong etc a killer such as this sees it as just like a stroll around the block. Did you see Dennis Rader's confession in court? It was just like he was ordering lunch when describing these horrid things he did. If you're hunting someone like prey,like the killer you are, you're not going to be worrying about if someone might accost you and/or rob you. You're going to have one main objective which is to kill. Its hard for people (like us) who don't have it to really understand it. I have a co-worker of mine who watches the news regularly. I always hear comments from him when he sees something like this on the news like a girl being raped or someones whos murdered, he always says the same thing, 'Who would want to do that?' What he always fails to understand is that hes seeing the act through his eyes and not a criminals. Hes thinking as he would think about something like that and not how a psychopath would. They play by a different set of rules, so to speak, than we do.
Cool talking to you Ben I don't think we've spoken yet I'm new around here!
Jordan

[Rubyretro]

You have to remember that Serial Killers have this fearlessness about them that most of us don't have. He wouldn't have been scared of anybody walking the streets he is there for his objective which is to kill
Jordan

I`m sure, however the person wearing both the horseshoe pin and the
watchchain with it`s unusual red stone stamp should have been identifiable
to family, a maid, shopkeepers, work contacts, prostitutes etc etc from newspaper descriptions.

Accepting that A Man existed and was fearless enough to wear them when picking up a victim, their identification by a witness should have been enough to catch him -which is why I think that Abberline was initially so excited by Hutch`s statement. If no one came forward, then that may be one reason that the description was quickly discounted.

[Ben]

Good talking to you too, Jordan! Hope you're enjoying the discussions.

I fear you may be missing my point slightly. I wasn't disputing the ability of a serial killer to "turn off morality like a lightswitch". I was addressing the issue of fear of capture, and the extent to which serial killers adopt various measures to prevent it. They might possess a high capacity for risk and daring, but that doesn't make them oblivious to the possibility of capture, nor are they likely to engage in any activity likely to jeopardize their chances of pulling off an efficient crime.

If you're hunting someone like prey,like the killer you are, you're not going to be worrying about if someone might accost you and/or rob you.

I disagree.

If you're hunting in an area in which "robbing" is commonplace, why carry around an exposed bulging wallet (for example), if you know full well that it stands a good chance of interfering with your killing objective? All it does is hinder the chances of success at that objective and increase the chances of capture, and the argument that serial killers (or psychopaths in general) have some mental block to these considerations because they're so intent on murder is not borne out by any psychological study I've read.

Stephen Wright was a tried and tested local, known by some of the prostitutes, who often wore one of those luminous worker's jackets of the type seen regularly around Britain's roads, in order to appear as unthreatening and "everyday" as possible. He may have been intent on killing, but he wasn't oblivious to the need to minimise the risk of appearing too conspicuous when on the prowl.

Best regards,
Ben

[mariab]

To Ben and Chainzcooper:
Guys, please don't romanticize serial killers! Serial killers are about the dirtiest scumbugs to ever have walked on this earth, and it's not a coincidence that prison inmates can't stand them and consider them as the lowest lowlife, next to child-molesters and rapists. Remember how Jeffrey Dahmer ended? That's why imprisoned serial killers (like Bundy in Texas) are generally held up in solitary confinement.
Also the so-called “fearlessness“ in the execution of serial killers' acts is a myth. Bundy was crying like a baby when the time came to be executed, and only then did he start contacting the police, to “share information“ about his own crimes, and “to help them catch the Green River Killer“. Why do you think that most serial killers almost invariably choose young prostitutes as their victims? For the availability and vulnerability, also these women are not going to be missed by anybody. It's too much like shooting fish in a barrel!
As for the Ripper, it's true that he “worked“ outside and was quick and skilled with a knife, but from the general food chain, he absolutely chose the weakest link: elderly and drunken prostitutes. And if it's him who did Stride, then we have proof that he escaped the scene, scared off by a single horse carriage. This has nothing to do with “being brave“.

[Ben]

Guys, please don't romanticize serial killers!

I think it's glaringly obvious that I'm not doing anything of the sort, Maria.

I'm not disputing that serial killers are cowardly dirty scumbags. I'm only pointing out that they will invariably take steps to increase the chances of success at their evil cowardly and scumbag-like task, whilst minimising the chances of capture in the process. To highlight a fact on record isn't "romanticizing" anything.

All the best,
Ben

[mariab]

Hi Ben,
I was referring more to what Chainzcooper said, i.e. the supposed “fearlesness“ factor while committing murder acts. By the way I'm currently surfing in South Africa, where great white sharks abund in the water, and I've met my share of REALLY fearless males, who accessorily haven't murdered anybody (unless you count fishing)...!