Jacob The Ripper?

[Jimi]

Knives

Hi All
Hi Jon S.
Very interesting post and I suppose it all comes down to the definition of Phillips word 'jagged'.
I have never been a fan of the two knife theory, I will admit and Phillips description of the blade used certainly doesn't alter that.
A butcher in my time would mainly only use two types of knives, a 4-5 inch boning or skinning knife and a 7-8 inch steak or slicing knife.
What would you say to an idea of a 7-8 inch knife used from the front in a chopping motion to the side of the neck/throat area? Would that not penetrate deep enough to do the damage and leave a jagged cut?
Keep Well
Jimi

[Bridewell]

Interesting

Just to that point. A warm carcass requires a sharper knife than one which has been dead a while and kept in a cooler, which is the case with many butchers.
One of the inconsistencies which has been touched on here is Phillip's observation:
"I noticed that the incision of the skin was jagged, and reached right round the neck."

Which suggests to me the knife was not sharp enough. Those words are consistent with the killer having to apply a sawing action to cut the neck.

Yet we also read:
[Coroner] Was the instrument used at the throat the same as that used at the abdomen?

[Phillips] Very probably. It must have been a very sharp knife, probably with a thin, narrow blade, and at least six to eight inches in length, and perhaps longer.

A very sharp knife should not have required the user to apply a sawing action. The cut should have been level and clean. Unless there is some other consideration that we are missing.
But as I said, a recently killed corpse is harder to cut, warm flaccid skin will drag with the knife blade, but this does not appear to have been the case in other murders (or maybe Nichols?).

There is a difference in resistance between skin and muscle. In some places on a body if you thrust the knife in too deep and drag it in one direction the skin might fold up because the skin is loose compared with the muscle. This might produce an uneven cut in the skin which might look jagged.

The correct way of course is to do what a surgeon does. First lightly slice the skin, then with a second cut, divide the muscle.
This is what I think was done to Eddowes, which essentially produces two cuts, but thats for another thread.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

That looks to be a very knowledgeable post. Do you have surgical skills yourself, or have you read up on the subject extensively?

Best Wishes, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

What would you say to an idea of a 7-8 inch knife used from the front in a chopping motion to the side of the neck/throat area? Would that not penetrate deep enough to do the damage and leave a jagged cut?
Keep Well
Jimi

Hi Jimi.
I'm not sure I am accurately picturing your description. Phillips did suggest a blade length of 6 to 8 inches, so the steak-knife you suggest should not be ruled out. However, the width of the steak-knife is too great for some of the other injuries.
If he used a steak-knife to cut around the neck then he used a different knife for the abdominal mutilations, that means two.
I doubt he used two knives in Chapmans case.
He may have needed two knives with Kelly, they go dull rapidly.

Hi Jon,

That looks to be a very knowledgeable post. Do you have surgical skills yourself, or have you read up on the subject extensively?

Best Wishes, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell.
Well yes, I have read up on 19th century surgical procedures, but I served as a butchers apprentice many moons ago. Frozen, chilled & fresh carcasses came across my slab for several years. My butchering experiences fuelled my interest in these murders from the surgeons perspective. The pig carcass is the nearest animal to the human cadaver, and is quite often used for tests which cannot be carried out on a human, especially wound analysis.

Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

Hi Bridewell.
Well yes, I have read up on 19th century surgical procedures, but I served as a butchers apprentice many moons ago. Frozen, chilled & fresh carcasses came across my slab for several years. My butchering experiences fuelled my interest in these murders from the surgeons perspective. The pig carcass is the nearest animal to the human cadaver, and is quite often used for tests which cannot be carried out on a human, especially wound analysis.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

In the light of your experience, what do you think of the oft-quoted estimate that it would have taken "at least two hours" to inflict Mary Kelly's injuries? (I have always felt that the question was one which should have been addressed to a butcher, and not to a surgeon, and that two hours was likely to have been an over-estimate).

Best Wishes, Bridewell

[lynn cates]

time estimate

Hello Bridewell. If I recall properly, Gareth Williams did a time estimate that included all the cuts and excision of the individual body parts. Seems he agrees with you and brought it in at around 90 minutes.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

In the light of your experience, what do you think of the oft-quoted estimate that it would have taken "at least two hours" to inflict Mary Kelly's injuries? (I have always felt that the question was one which should have been addressed to a butcher, and not to a surgeon, and that two hours was likely to have been an over-estimate).

Best Wishes, Bridewell

Hi Bridewell.
I take two hours as excessive. If we accept a killer took about 10 minutes to mutilate Eddowes, then I wouldn't expect much more than an extra 40-45 minutes maximum, for Kelly. So in total, under an hour.
But, there are contributing factors that we have no details of. For instance, in previous murders the doctors offered comments on how well or poorly a particular organ was removed. No comments are offered with Kelly.

We do not know if the killer slashed his way through the body or if he proceded with care. The numerous random cuts (forearms, face, left calf), appear to suggest a degree of frenzy, so whether the internal organs were carefully removed or not is anyone's guess.
Whether the killer was careful or carefree will reflect on the time needed to complete the job, and even then, we do not know if he was disturbed.
Another factor, I think his knife would have dulled pretty quick, and that would slow him down. Though he might have had more than one knife with him.

The way we see the body in the photo's, is that how he intended to leave her, or did he have to pack up quick and run?
It strikes me as an unusual way to leave the body, he obviously began to remove large chunks of flesh, so why did he stop?

Based on what we see, and accepting there is a lot we do not know, I think the killer would not take an hour to leave her like we see her.

Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

More Than One Knife

Hi Bridewell.
I take two hours as excessive. If we accept a killer took about 10 minutes to mutilate Eddowes, then I wouldn't expect much more than an extra 40-45 minutes maximum, for Kelly. So in total, under an hour.
But, there are contributing factors that we have no details of. For instance, in previous murders the doctors offered comments on how well or poorly a particular organ was removed. No comments are offered with Kelly.

We do not know if the killer slashed his way through the body or if he proceded with care. The numerous random cuts (forearms, face, left calf), appear to suggest a degree of frenzy, so whether the internal organs were carefully removed or not is anyone's guess.
Whether the killer was careful or carefree will reflect on the time needed to complete the job, and even then, we do not know if he was disturbed.
Another factor, I think his knife would have dulled pretty quick, and that would slow him down. Though he might have had more than one knife with him.
The way we see the body in the photo's, is that how he intended to leave her, or did he have to pack up quick and run?
It strikes me as an unusual way to leave the body, he obviously began to remove large chunks of flesh, so why did he stop?

Based on what we see, and accepting there is a lot we do not know, I think the killer would not take an hour to leave her like we see her.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

I also think that the time is seriously over-estimated. The possibility of more than one knife being used has also been largely ignored and I think, like you, that it shouldn't have been. We are talking (assuming that Kelly was a Ripper murder) about a killer who has struck several times before. If he found that his knife had gone dull on previous occasions, it would surely make sense to argue that he learned from experience and carried a spare. I own a draw knife and asked a friend with over 50 years of experience as a joiner how long it would take someone experienced in its use to cause the injuries to Mary Kelly's breasts and thighs. His reply? "Seconds. Less than that actually". That must, I think, be a slight exaggeration, but not much of one. A well-honed draw knife can be used to slice oak. As you say, the injuries suggest frenzy which, in turn, suggests haste.

The way we see the body in the photo's, is that how he intended to leave her, or did he have to pack up quick and run?
It strikes me as an unusual way to leave the body, he obviously began to remove large chunks of flesh, so why did he stop?

Two very good questions in my view. Did someone disturb him? if so, who and when? Has anyone run a thread on the "two hours" thing already? If not, I'll start one, as I'm in danger of hijacking this one.

Yours Bridewell.

[Robert]

I think he would have been in a hurry to kill (no sitting around listening to a Kelly cabaret) but not necessarily in a hurry to get the mutilations finished. Certainly there seems to be no sign of frenzy or speed vis-a-vis the organs, which are not tossed around the room but rather laid out close to one other, one is tempted to say "with care"...

[curious]

sorry, the quote thingy did not work.

Default Motive
hi All
Hi Velma
No, nothing wrong with your summation.
I agree my argument is probably light on motive. Did we try and discover a maternal reason. Look back on this thread and you will see how many times we have appealed for information on Caroline/Catherine Levy/Solomons. The womans a freaking ghost!
Thats not the only weak point,but having read the article,may i ask you a question?
If there was a poll on who was Jack the Ripper would you be tempted to Jacob in your top 3?
Keep Well
Neil




Hi, Neil,
Sorry it has taken awhile to get back to you -- extra busy week and I haven't been on the boards at all.

Even before your article, he was in my top 3.

I sort of harp on the maternal aspect because from very early on, it appeared to me the killer had some sort of mother issues because of the ages of the women and the considerably earlier ages of the men seen with the victims.

I like when a theory comes up that supports my own thinking, and I am interested in the other person's reasoning to see if I can gain more understanding myself.

It's not about disagreeing, but wanting a peek inside someone else's reasoning and better understanding my own little inklings.

[tji]

Hi all

Just a quick post to apologise in the delay in getting the new Jacob Levy summary from the article onto the boards. I am hoping to post it sometime this week.

In our defence we have had a few 'eventful' days that include the death of a much loved family dog Jade midweek. Saturday morning my uncle died and Saturday afternoon saw Nigel in a car crash.

Also had to organise Nige's dad's first year memorial party yesterday and help with the funeral for my uncle. So it isn't that we have lost interest, just not had chance, dad has made a start on it and hopefully we should get it to the boards over the next few days.

Thanks all for your patience

Tracy

[lynn cates]

condolences

Hello TJ. So sorry about all those problems. At times like that, the ripper business can wait.

Condolences.
LC

[Stephen Thomas]

What exactly are the facts that conclusively prove that Jacob was not JTR?

I checked the new A-Z but it was a bit vague about this question.

[tji]

Hi Lynn

Thanks - I should have said, Nige was not hurt too badly, unfortunately the other driver, who crashed into Nige was speeding when he lost control, didn't have MOT insurance or tax on the car, in fact him and his passenger did a runner, so we are left with the repair bill ourselves, just to make a bad week even worse.
On the bright side the Police did say Nige was very lucky as he could have been hurt really bad, the other car was a write off.

Hi Stephen

We are trying to put Jacob forward as a suspect people should look into as Jack, and published an article in Ripperologist 124 last month as to why we think he makes a good suspect. I am not sure if anyone has actually put forward information on ruling him out as a suspect.


Tracy

[lynn cates]

shame

Hello TJ. Hmm, that's insult on top of injury.

Hope it works out.
LC

[curious]

Hi all

Just a quick post to apologise in the delay in getting the new Jacob Levy summary from the article onto the boards. I am hoping to post it sometime this week.

In our defence we have had a few 'eventful' days that include the death of a much loved family dog Jade midweek. Saturday morning my uncle died and Saturday afternoon saw Nigel in a car crash.

Also had to organise Nige's dad's first year memorial party yesterday and help with the funeral for my uncle. So it isn't that we have lost interest, just not had chance, dad has made a start on it and hopefully we should get it to the boards over the next few days.

Thanks all for your patience

Tracy

So sorry for all your troubles. A very bad week indeed. As Lynn said, with all that hanging over you, Ripper stuff can wait. it's only been 120+ years after all . . .