Jacob The Ripper?

[tji]

Hi Lynn

Uh oh.

Yeah I think quite a few of us are starting to get a little panicky. I think Google would have just had quite a few hits

Tracy

[tji]

Hi all

Looking back at my posts I realise that it looks like I am responding to Curious for the full post, after the first sentence the rest is in answer to Eratta, sorry for any confusion.

Tracy

[Wickerman]

..... Your man is a long way from being the worst suspect on the list, because of his background and history. The problem (as with most) is placing him at a crime scene,

In all fairness, that is a problem with every named suspect. Also, there is no guarantee that the last person seen (by Long, Schwartz, Lawende, Cox, Hutchinson) with a victim was the killer either.

It must also be born in mind that if we stick to only 'obvious' suspects then the police would have checked them out anyway. Whatever we deem obvious must surely have been equally obvious to the police of the time.
We are not imbued with any great sense of logic, especially given the sparse records we have at our disposal.

What can be taken for granted is, the public, the press & the police walked past Jack the Ripper in the street every day and never gave him a second glance.
So why should we look for someome with a target on his back?


Regards, Jon S.

[GregBaron]

Man of interest...

I, for one, think Jacob Levy an excellent suspect. I appreciate all the research conducted.

I’m especially intrigued by the implied Koz-Levy connections. I wonder if there was confusion between the two by officials (Mac, Swanson) or even a deliberate switching of the names for whatever reason?

On another note, somebody was the mother of Jtr, somebody was the father of Jtr. Jtr likely had brothers and sisters. No one wants a madman in their family tree yet I suspect we all have one or more. I don’t think anyone out here wants to trash anyone’s family or ancestors, we’re speculating on an unsolvable crime. Somebody or somebodies did it, he had relatives. I’m sorry about that but we’re going to put names out there and pray that people 124 years removed will not be unduly offended. That’s no one’s intent…


Greg

[Jimi]

More!

Hi All
Hi Jon S
Good post, and I do think your signature goes al long way to describe the type of killer Jack was.
Hi Greg
Thanks for that.Can I ask what you would think was the reason for them switching names on suspects?
You know,Greg, and I know you've read the article, after the amount of research Tracy and I did on the Levys, and discovering The Trauma that he went through, we actually began to feel sorry for him, as i put it in The Decade of Destruction " not about the killing of 5 prostitutes but the sad decline of a mans life". Or something like that.
We are not that insensitive to descendant views that we just ignored them, if at any time any proven relative of Jacob had come forward and asked to share our research it would have been gladly given, if they had asked to stop we would have considered it.
Keep Well
Jimi

[GregBaron]

Mix up?

Thanks for that.Can I ask what you would think was the reason for them switching names on suspects?

I have no idea Jimi. It's the old "caged in an asylum and died shortly thereafter" statement that doesn't apply to Koz but does to David Cohen and Jacob Levy. The Jewish name mix-up hypothesis...

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that anyone was being insensitive about family feelings, only really that it's just the nature of the beast...


Greg

[lynn cates]

name confusion

Hello Greg. If names were confused then a good many unlikely stories become less unlikely.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Double double toil and trouble...

Hello Greg. If names were confused then a good many unlikely stories become less unlikely.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn. I agree. Funny how our finest points about the case seem to require the double negative..!


Greg

[lynn cates]

Brouwer

Hello Greg. Good observation. I think of it as a Brouwer double negative. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

.... It's the old "caged in an asylum and died shortly thereafter" statement that doesn't apply to Koz but does to David Cohen and Jacob Levy.

Whatever Anderson knew he got from Swanson by way of reports. Considering the hundreds of reports that came across his desk, his ability to remember accurately is the real question.
Memoirs written 20 years later and without notes are hardly a sound basis for an argument.

Hi Jon S
Good post, and I do think your signature goes al long way to describe the type of killer Jack was.

Hi Jimi.
Yes, thankyou. This guy certainly flew under the radar, in my opinion.

Regards, Jon S.

[Jimi]

Apologies

Hi Greg
My Bad! I honestly did not mean to single you out on my post, it should have been addressed to everyone. I do NOT for one second think of you as being insensitive, in fact I think you have a lot of sense.
Keep Well
Jimi

[GregBaron]

Mystery wrapped in an enigma...

Hi Greg
My Bad! I honestly did not mean to single you out on my post, it should have been addressed to everyone. I do NOT for one second think of you as being insensitive, in fact I think you have a lot of sense.
Keep Well
Jimi

Thanks Jimi, no problem. I know these things can be delicate but such is the nature of historical research. People might keep in mind that unearthed facts may just as likely exonerate a suspect as implicate him....

Whatever Anderson knew he got from Swanson by way of reports. Considering the hundreds of reports that came across his desk, his ability to remember accurately is the real question.
Memoirs written 20 years later and without notes are hardly a sound basis for an argument.

Thanks Wickerman, I agree with you here with the exception of these two caveats...

1) People tend to remember traumatic events - not sure how traumatic the Whitechapel murders were to Anderson but I would think more than run of the mill..
2) "Definitely ascertained fact" - is hardly a hedge...


Greg

[Errata]

[QUOTE=tji;207802]

Personally, I think we should take names out of it.

Oh okay - well then if we are taking names out I can now say I have solved the case, I know who Jtr was, can't tell you though, no names allowed..... Yeah I can see a few problems with that.

for the love of... There was no way in your mind that I could possibly mean presenting the evidence or the coincidences as hypotheticals until the problems in the the theory are dealt with? Or that I might have meant that presenting a suspect as a type rather than a name would get just as much feedback?

Not no names ever, just not without a well thought out hypothesis. I mean, a little respect is not entirely out of the question. You don't do it, but some do.

Okay, how do you know it isn't evident in any of the crimes?
He didn't just live in the neighbourhood, he lived in the centre of it all, as for the height, he is 5 ft 3'. There is no confusion over it.

No butcher would have made such a hash of the throat cut. It is the type of cut they make dozens of times a day, and If anything he would have been in danger of decapitating his victim in one stroke, not wake two separate cuts, saw through and around, and generally screw it up. And I didn't mean there was a confusion over Levy's height, but that there was confusion over Jack the Ripper's height. Other witnesses put him at 5'8.

No early symptoms include loss of ambition to work, memory lapses, irritability, unusual giddiness, decline in personal appearance, along with a few others. I believe you probably are thinking of the Tabis dorsalis form of neurosyphilis, not General Paresis, which he was diagnosed with.

The early symptoms of all types of neurosyphilis are the same. Whether it evolves into general paresis or tabes dorsalis is simply a question of where the most damage is done. But because the virus attacks the structure of the brain, you get structural anomalies. It also shares many early symptoms of MS and Schizophrenia. But the shakes, neuralgia and halos are pretty common to all neurosyphilis victims.

This case could be made for practically every suspect Errata, it is the problem with trying to trace someone from 100+ years ago, no-one said it was going to be easy, so should we just give up and not bother?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Jacob Levy was a person. And I think if we are going to name names, then we have a responsibility to ensure that Someone isn't being dragged through the mud because someone thinks he's "weird" or has some odd theories that might tangentially link someone to the case. And I'm not saying you do that, but you and I both know that some people DO in fact do that. Some people write books on it. No responsible historian could make a case for Van Gogh being jack the Ripper, and yet....I'm saying in general we have a responsibility to these names. Not you, not Jimi, but it's worth noting that not everyone is as scrupulous in their research as you guys are. It sometimes seems like all people really have to hear is that someone had a mental illness and that sells it. But that's not enough.And yeah, it hurts a little on a personal level, but mostly I just want people to defend their ideas. Now you guys have, and I haven't seen it, and that's my fault. But the general objection remains. People should be able to defend their suspect choices, because it IS someone's name they are dragging about. And if they cannot conduct a respectful research and exchange of ideas the way you and Jimi did, they need to not name names. Is all I'm saying.

[tji]

Hi Eratta

for the love of... There was no way in your mind that I could possibly mean presenting the evidence or the coincidences as hypotheticals until the problems in the the theory are dealt with? Or that I might have meant that presenting a suspect as a type rather than a name would get just as much feedback?

What you mean and what works are quite different Eratta, how serious would anyone take somebody who said they had a suspect, he was a Doctor, hated women and in the area at the time, or someone knew a butcher who was the right age, lived in the area and was sent to an asylum. People are not going to be too interested until you can furnish specifics they can double check (as any researcher would do). Also I think you may be quite a few years out for worrying about names being named, they are already out there. Plus on the other side look how many suspects have been eliminated through people researching them.

Not no names ever, just not without a well thought out hypothesis. I mean, a little respect is not entirely out of the question. You don't do it, but some do.

I admire your considerations Eratta, but we can't make people respect others, while I believe the majority of people on the boards do, there is nothing you can do for the ones that don't, and if they don't respect the names they are putting forward, then they are not going to respect yours, or families wishes not to name them.

No butcher would have made such a hash of the throat cut. It is the type of cut they make dozens of times a day, and If anything he would have been in danger of decapitating his victim in one stroke, not wake two separate cuts, saw through and around, and generally screw it up. And I didn't mean there was a confusion over Levy's height, but that there was confusion over Jack the Ripper's height. Other witnesses put him at 5'8.

How do you know, how many butchers have cut throats? the majority of that would be done by a slaughterman rather than a butcher. Butchers are used to dealing with dead animals not living humans.

Fair enough but as we said there is nothing we can do about that, any suspect put forward will not match all the witness statements, what we can say is he matches the height of the one person who knew him.

The early symptoms of all types of neurosyphilis are the same. Whether it evolves into general paresis or tabes dorsalis is simply a question of where the most damage is done. But because the virus attacks the structure of the brain, you get structural anomalies. It also shares many early symptoms of MS and Schizophrenia. But the shakes, neuralgia and halos are pretty common to all neurosyphilis victims.

Differential Diagnosis of Neurosyphilis
Given the protean manifestations of the various forms and stages of neurosyphilis, the differential diagnostic possibilities are broad.

If the presentation is that of cranial nerve palsy, other basal meningitides should be considered, such as tubercular involvement. Acute meningitis due to other organisms is also possible.

Meningovascular syphilis can manifest as a strokelike phenomenon, in which case all causes of vaso-occlusive or ischemic infarction must be reviewed.

If gummata are present, other space-occupying lesions are included in the differential diagnosis, such as primary or metastatic neoplasms with mass effect.

General paresis can manifest with a multitude of psychiatric symptoms, including delirium, dementia, mania, psychosis, personality change, and/or depression.[35]

Tabes dorsalis can appear consistent with subacute combined degeneration of the spinal cord. Multiple sclerosis must also always remain in the differential. The presence of an Argyll Robertson pupil indicates the possibility of the differential diagnosis mentioned under tabes dorsalis

Tabes dorsalis is mentioned with M.s not general paresis.

Thank you for the kind words, but I am afraid that not naming names is something that won't happen because people more than hypothesis and suppositions, I know I would.

Mental illness is a huge factor in this case so you are always going to get people interested in that side, let's face it who wants to believe a 'balanced' person could do this?
Unfortunately some people have suffered with mental illness and have an idea what it is about, but people who haven't have questions, queries and yes even misconceptions, but it is part of life, as a race we are curious as to where we have come from and why we do what we do.

As to defending a suspect then, yes of course people should be able to, but I would think they would want the facts before they defend, but that might be just me?

Tracy

[Wickerman]

How do you know, how many butchers have cut throats? the majority of that would be done by a slaughterman rather than a butcher. Butchers are used to dealing with dead animals not living humans.

Just to that point. A warm carcass requires a sharper knife than one which has been dead a while and kept in a cooler, which is the case with many butchers.
One of the inconsistencies which has been touched on here is Phillip's observation:
"I noticed that the incision of the skin was jagged, and reached right round the neck."

Which suggests to me the knife was not sharp enough. Those words are consistent with the killer having to apply a sawing action to cut the neck.

Yet we also read:
[Coroner] Was the instrument used at the throat the same as that used at the abdomen?

[Phillips] Very probably. It must have been a very sharp knife, probably with a thin, narrow blade, and at least six to eight inches in length, and perhaps longer.

A very sharp knife should not have required the user to apply a sawing action. The cut should have been level and clean. Unless there is some other consideration that we are missing.
But as I said, a recently killed corpse is harder to cut, warm flaccid skin will drag with the knife blade, but this does not appear to have been the case in other murders (or maybe Nichols?).

There is a difference in resistance between skin and muscle. In some places on a body if you thrust the knife in too deep and drag it in one direction the skin might fold up because the skin is loose compared with the muscle. This might produce an uneven cut in the skin which might look jagged.

The correct way of course is to do what a surgeon does. First lightly slice the skin, then with a second cut, divide the muscle.
This is what I think was done to Eddowes, which essentially produces two cuts, but thats for another thread.

Regards, Jon S.