We have him...

[perrymason]

Hi Chris. For some time I've been seperated by my notes, which are all on an old broken laptop. I've been lazy about getting a new one, but lately I've been motived to do so. Now I have a fire under my butt to publish on Le Grand before someone else gets the notion to do so. So, soon I'll have all my notes and I'll see if there's something about this prison in there. But from these various reports, there's very little doubt they're referring to Le Grand.

Michael,

Le Grand wasn't just mean, he was a bonafide psychopath. I've read the transcripts of his various trials, as has Debs, and he was crazy. In 1887 he wrote a letter (in red ink) to the police commissioner threatening to burn down buildings. There was a dock fire on the night of the Nichols murder. He was involved in a bank robbery in which the next door building was used to dig through into the basement. This exact same method was earlier utilized in the post office robbery that occurred at the time of the Mitre Square murder. As already mentioned, he was a pimp with French pretenses who traveled occassionally to Paris. Mary Kelly was a prostitute with French pretenses who had travelled to Paris with a man. All circumstancial, but compelling nonetheless.
As for his capacity for violence, he threw a policeman in front of a train, threatened a cop with 'six inches of steel' to his back, and was prepared to blow up old ladies if they didn't pay him. By prepared, I mean he not only sent them threatening letters, but was found with the promised explosives and an 'infernal machine' when arrested by the police.

Le Grand actually wrote that he was 'void of all human feeling' and that a woman had wronged him so it was a woman who would pay.

Incidentally, his relationship with Batchelor ended when Le Grand beat him down in the middle of the street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The part I put in bold jumped out at me, although you make some good points regarding him in a general sense for any violent crimes.

Interesting that LeGrand had that kind of experience with tunneling in from adjacent buildings.

I get the sense about this guy that any violent crime or one of fraud in the area could fit his known character, but I dont see the Ripper crimes...(likely being some of the murders within the Canonical Group but not the group as a "series"), ...as being "thug-type" crimes.

I can see that LeGrand was a thief, a thug, a fraud and a man with violent tendencies towards prostitutes......but I dont see the actual Ripper crimes as being a "statement" of sorts about women in general or prostitutes.

Murder was such a small part of some of the deaths that I cannot envision a murderer who is killing for revenge, or hatred. That kind of man might just choke a woman to death with his bare hands, or cut her throat,....but what would prompt that sort of man to then stay with the murder victim and cut them open to take things out?

Seems like a man like that is motivated by money and power and neither are implied by the possession of some organs. Its not like they are trophies he can show off.

I may be wrong, but the murders of at least Polly and Annie seem to me to be devoid of compassion, not "angry". It would seem the deaths were caused so the PM work could take place and the postmortem cutting work that he does do has no commercial value. Unless it was as Wynne Baxter supposed, as sale-able biological samples.

Now....if LeGrand killed those 2 for that reason, economic, then I would think we have a viable motive for him cutting into women he has just killed, based on what you describe as his known character. Without an economic motive, why would LeGrand take organs? Why would anyone take organs for that matter?

Best regards TW

[perrymason]

Were you Tom and Monty aware that they caught someone named Frances Robarti later passing off some of the fivepenny postage stamps from the 268L of stamps taken at that robbery?

Heres a press report from Oct 2nd by the Daily News....

"DARING BURGLARY AT ALDGATE POST-OFFICE.-When the Post-office in High-street, Aldgate, a few yards from where the murder in Mitre-square took place on Sunday, was opened yesterday morning it was discovered that it had been entered by burglars and the safe forced. The safe contained an unusually large amount of money, 370l. being locked up in one of the drawers, and about 49l. being in an ordinary bowl just inside one of the compartments. Stamps to the amount of about 250l. were also in the safe. The burglars, after discovering the safe, proceeded to wrench open one of the sides. They were successful in this, and managed to reach the money in the bowl, and the stamps, which they took. The drawer in which the larger amount of cash was locked was subjected to very rough treatment, but fortunately it resisted the thieves' efforts. A sum of about 3l. belonging to the postmaster was also taken from an upper room in the house. The fact that the office had been broken into was discovered by a clerk on his arrival at eight o'clock yesterday morning. On entering the passage he saw that some of the stairs leading from the upper part of the house and over some steps by which the cellar is reached from the office had been forced up. He at once informed the police, who then found the damage to the safe. Careful examination by the police shows that the burglars first entered an empty warehouse in Duke-street, just round the corner, and then got into the post-office through the trap-door on the roof."


According to that you are both sort of correct, the general access was from an adjacent building but the post office access itself was via the roof.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

You said "I don't see Le Grand as the Ripper" even before you knew anything about him. You still only know the little bits I've posted here. But I agree that I wondered if a career con man like Le Grand could commit the murders. The reality is that of course he could. So could Tumblety have. Or Kosminski. Or Martin Fido. Whatever compelled the Ripper to act in this manner was private to him. But in Le Grand we have that hatred of women, that rage. The only taboo to him would have been completely destroying a woman. Personally, I can't see ANYBODY doing what the Ripper did, but someone did, and Le Grand is as good a guess as any.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Were you Tom and Monty aware that they caught someone named Frances Robarti later passing off some of the fivepenny postage stamps from the 268L of stamps taken at that robbery?

Yes, but it wasn't a one-man job. And thanks for setting us straight on the robbery.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Michael,

Many thanks for that. I just pulled the same article from my files.

I was under the assumption that the Aldgate Post office was on the corner with Duke Street however I had a debate, with Rob or Jake - cant remember which, and they pointed out the PO was actually a few buildings along.

I shall text he who knows.

Monty

[Monty]

Yes, but it wasn't a one-man job. And thanks for setting us straight on the robbery.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks for putting US straight?

I was.

Monty

[perrymason]

Michael,

You said "I don't see Le Grand as the Ripper" even before you knew anything about him. You still only know the little bits I've posted here. But I agree that I wondered if a career con man like Le Grand could commit the murders. The reality is that of course he could. So could Tumblety have. Or Kosminski. Or Martin Fido. Whatever compelled the Ripper to act in this manner was private to him. But in Le Grand we have that hatred of women, that rage. The only taboo to him would have been completely destroying a woman. Personally, I can't see ANYBODY doing what the Ripper did, but someone did, and Le Grand is as good a guess as any.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

For me Tumblety and Kosminski are not really Ripper viable's as one had no training with surgery and was 5'11" and was nearly 50, and one was certifiably insane. Tumblety could have hired someone to do his dirty work, but then he would have likely had to also dispose of him afterward. Kosminski doesnt seem up to the challenges he would have faced.

The acts that are performed on at least Annie required someone who knew what they were doing and how to do it. It required an emotionally controlled and fast moving and acting individual.

The cold cruel man you describe could be that guy.....but for what reason? If this was LeGrand as you wonder about....then what specifically is in it for him to loiter after killing a woman to cut her open and take things?

If its money, then he's a hired thug...not a serial killer....and if its for power, then all he does is impress and dominate some individual women which he ends up killing,...he cannot share what he has done with anyone living.

I see the man motivated by money and seeking opportunities for power or wealth based on what little Ive seen described about him....but I dont see what value human organs might also have for him.

If they cannot be sold....assuming the story of the American Doctor is not applicable,.... and they cannot be used to intimidate, impress, threaten or scare anyone into doing his bidding....then what value could they have to a man like Le Grand?

All the best Tom

[Rob Clack]

The Post Office in Aldgate was on the corner of Duke Street and Aldgate.

Rob

[Monty]

Just heard from the main man.

The Post Office was on the corner of Aldgate and Duke Street.

Monty

[perrymason]

Yes, but it wasn't a one-man job.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Indeed Tom, in fact I have a pet theory that when Abberline and Reid and others returned to room 13 on Saturday morning to re-sieve the ashes that were previously sifted through on Friday afternoon....they were looking for small traces of something that would be identifiable even in a reduced or partial state.....bills or currency, or stamps.

All the best TW, Monty.

[Tom_Wescott]

Monty and Rob,

Get it straight, was it on the corner of Aldgate and Duke Street, or Duke Street and Aldgate?

Thanks for putting US straight? I was.

Yes, but ignorance is lonely.

Michael,

I don't know what to tell you. Whatever reason the Ripper had for taking organs it wouldn't be a good enough reason for us, but made sense to him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Tom,

Yeah, pretty sure it was Aldgate and Duke Street.

I think, Ill ask Rob again.

Monty

[perrymason]

Michael,

I don't know what to tell you. Whatever reason the Ripper had for taking organs it wouldn't be a good enough reason for us, but made sense to him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I was just suggesting that a man like LeGrand seems to be might be amenable to a financial arrangement to commit murder, or he might even commit violence to punish someone or protect his "territory".....but the man that killed Annie did so in order to get her uterus, as far as Baxter and Phillips seem to believe.

Thats targetting an organ, not just taking a "trophy", so for me, there needs to be some explanation of what the killers value prop was by taking organs with him. Its far more dangerous for him to be with the women once they had their throats slit...and if he just wanted them dead, he had succeeded. So why stay....and cut organs out?

The killer either covets them, eats them, sells them, or uses them in some kind of ritual,..but the killer has some need for organs that is not addressed by the fact that LeGrand was cruel enough to extract them.

I would think far more murders are committed for love or money than any for other reasons.....so why not look for the most understandable ones?

Cheers Tom

[jerryd]

Hi Michael,

Le Grand had a long history of abusing prostitutes. In 1887, in broad daylight, he beat a girl in the street and then went to a constable to try to turn her in! He would also employ his thugs to follow girls and beat them up. His reason was to get them off the street so HIS girls could have the run of the place. Consider this when you consider Schwartz's evidence of two men on the street, one pulling Liz AWAY while Pipeman loiters nearby. Le Grand may have been 40 in 1888, but he gave his age as 35. He was 5' 11" talk, with brown hair. In short, he looked like Pipeman. Also consider that he was head of the vigilance committee that met at Mile End - very near Berner Street. After their meetings, they would hit the streets at midnight. They generally travelled in pairs. That would put Le Grand near Berner Street at the time of the murder. Then consider that he showed up the next day and started paying people to lie about a suspect who never existed. An obvious motive for that might be to throw the scent off himself. I'm speculating here, but not without a strong factual standing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Long time no talk! I was always anxious to hear more from you on "LeGrand of the Strand".

The bold part above reminded me of the following account with LeGrand's partner Batchelor, taken from from the Echo, Oct 18,1888.

MR. BATCHELOR'S STATEMENT

The shiny black bag and its contents were inspected this morning by an Echo reporter, who called at Messrs. Bellamy's in order to verify certain reports respecting their strange visitor. Mr. R. Bachelor, the manager, made the following statement:- "He was such a mysterious-looking person that I could not make him out at all, but it was not until after he left the shop that it somehow occurred to me that his mind was unhinged from some cause or other, and then the Whitechapel murders and the affair at Whitehall came across my mind. It was from reading the special edition of last night's Echo that I felt convinced the black bag was an incident worth mentioning. Well, as soon as the man came into the shop he took out a pencil and commenced to write some words which no one could read. The he straightened himself up, remarked 'You must not be surprised to hear I'm Jack the Ripper - I'm a most mysterious man' and darted out of the shop. He made use of the expression, 'I'm used to cutting people up, and can put them together again. The police are all disguised, and wherever I go I meet them.' He looked to me like a doctor or doctor's assistant, but was rather shabby." The razor and dagger found in the bag have been examined by Dr. Bond.

If Batchelor were involved with LeGrand, this could be another attempt to throw the Police off track.

jerryd

[perrymason]

Hey JD, nice to see you about here....Happy Holidays mate!

One thing about these "concocted" suspects in the cases of Packer and Bachelor and LeGrand's involvement.....I realize that few people who are savvy to the details of the crimes and investigations believe that a top hatted, Gladstone carrying, cape wearing, sword cane carrying, horse head tie pin wearing Toff had anything to do with these crimes.

Although I am of no formed opinion as yet to his probable economic status or likely residence, I do believe that the anatomical knowledge and knife skills shown on some of the Canonical murders suggested someone who has been or was being trained medically, perhaps surgically.

Much of the sloppiness in these few murders was forgivable by the physician that examined them due to haste, lighting and stressful circumstances.

Meaning.....Im not sure that in some Canonical murders a black bag might have been a toolkit and carryall.

Cheers jd, all the best