We have him...

[m_w_r]

Hi Chris,

I think it's quite possible - initially, I had speculated that the fifteen-year prisoner might have been James Crick, who was convicted of rape at the Central Criminal Court in December 1889, but his modus operandi seems to have been very boat-oriented, and it's difficult to believe that the police might have thought him to have been Jack the Ripper. I'd post something up here - the case was reported in the newspapers, and is worth reading - but I appear to have exceeded my allocation on the server.

Regards,

Mark

[curious]

Le Grand

Not definitely, but highly likely I think. I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but there can't have been many men of foreign nationality sent down for 20 years penal servitude for threatening ladies with violence in late 1891, like LeGrand was.

You all are aware, aren't you that LeGrand seems to have influenced Matthew Packer's testimony in the Liz Stride case?

Talk about a coincidence -- if you believe in such things

Quoting from the "Witness" section, under Matthew Packer:
Due to the drastic changes in his statements, Packer was considered unreliable and was not called to the inquest, despite the possible importance of his testimony.
As for the private detectives, 'Grand' was in fact a gentleman with a long criminal record who operated under numerous aliases, often known as 'Le Grand of the Strand', aka Charles Grant, Christian Nielson and 'Briscony' to name a few. In consequence of this reputation and allied with Packer's changing story, Chief Inspector Donald Swanson was moved to report that "any statement he (Packer) made would be rendered almost valueless as evidence".[9]

curious

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris,

I have had a good search through the 1891 census, and have come up blank,,, but did notice one small thing from the 1901 census... this Turner fellow is married. The BMD thing I will try to look at later, but am pushed for time right now.

If you or anyone can help that way, it might give us a little push forward, because I dont think Turner is his real name if born in Belgium... I think it's probably an Englishism or assumed name.

best wishes

Phil

[Chris]

I have had a good search through the 1891 census, and have come up blank,,, but did notice one small thing from the 1901 census... this Turner fellow is married. The BMD thing I will try to look at later, but am pushed for time right now.

If you or anyone can help that way, it might give us a little push forward, because I dont think Turner is his real name if born in Belgium... I think it's probably an Englishism or assumed name.

I must say that at the moment it looks to me as though Debra Arif's suggestion of Charles Le Grand is probably the right one, and that John Turner was a red herring. I think the priority should probably be to confirm whether Le Grand was in Portland Prison in 1892, if possible.

Unfortunately it looks as though the Portland records held at the National Archives are too early to help. But it may be that there's information about Le Grand's custodial history in other records at Kew. I'd be happy to have a look when I'm next there - but of course I wouldn't want to tread on anyone else's (metaphorical) toes, and still less to duplicate work that may already have been done.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Folks. This article refers to Charles Le Grand, my preferred suspect for the murder of Liz Stride, and possibly for the Ripper murders themselves. Thanks to Chris for bringing this thread to my attention.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Silly me, I only now realized there was more than one page to this thread and that Le Grand is already being discussed. I look forward to reading it in full, particularly since I see Debs is posting. She is, of course, Le Grand researcher extraordinaire.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

My thanks to Mike Covell for posting these articles. They pretty much confirm what I've suspected for years, and that is that Le Grand was investigated as a Ripper suspect. When my book on Le Grand comes out I'm pretty sure he'll fly right to the top of the suspect heep.

Among his many nefarious accomplishments, Le Grand was a pimp who put on French aires, calling himself the 'French Colonel'. He'd travel to Paris on occassion and may have been the man who took Mary Kelly to Paris and gave her the name 'Marie Jeanette'. He was mean as hell, but very smart. At the very least, I consider him the best suspect (next to Jack the Ripper) for the murder of Liz Stride. One of the detectives following him around found that he'd told people he'd murdered a woman. Although the detective suspected he was just boasting to put the fear into people, who's to say it wasn't true. I would absolutely love to know the full 'chain of evidence' the police had on him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Tom,
If the John Turner thing is a red herring, do we know if Msr Le Grande was married, children etc?.. Nome de plumes etc?

best wishes

Phil

[perrymason]

My thanks to Mike Covell for posting these articles. They pretty much confirm what I've suspected for years, and that is that Le Grand was investigated as a Ripper suspect. When my book on Le Grand comes out I'm pretty sure he'll fly right to the top of the suspect heep.

Among his many nefarious accomplishments, Le Grand was a pimp who put on French aires, calling himself the 'French Colonel'. He'd travel to Paris on occassion and may have been the man who took Mary Kelly to Paris and gave her the name 'Marie Jeanette'. He was mean as hell, but very smart. At the very least, I consider him the best suspect (next to Jack the Ripper) for the murder of Liz Stride. One of the detectives following him around found that he'd told people he'd murdered a woman. Although the detective suspected he was just boasting to put the fear into people, who's to say it wasn't true. I would absolutely love to know the full 'chain of evidence' the police had on him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I was wondering when you would jump in here as I know this man is a favorite of yours for some time now. You may be right, he may be a good suspect for Liz Strides murder since we really dont have a good one pegged for this one as yet....but I wonder if when he supposedly said he had killed "a" woman the question of his Ripper worthiness was dealt with.

And of course a suggested motive for any of the alleged Ripper crimes would be helpful as well.

Robbery might be down this guys lane, some victims were searched and at least one victim had rings taken from her....and the Old Bailey proceeding I found for him in 1891 was for counterfeiting....but how do abdominal mutilations and organ thefts factor into the LeGrand picture?

Cheers Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Michael,

Le Grand had a long history of abusing prostitutes. In 1887, in broad daylight, he beat a girl in the street and then went to a constable to try to turn her in! He would also employ his thugs to follow girls and beat them up. His reason was to get them off the street so HIS girls could have the run of the place. Consider this when you consider Schwartz's evidence of two men on the street, one pulling Liz AWAY while Pipeman loiters nearby. Le Grand may have been 40 in 1888, but he gave his age as 35. He was 5' 11" talk, with brown hair. In short, he looked like Pipeman. Also consider that he was head of the vigilance committee that met at Mile End - very near Berner Street. After their meetings, they would hit the streets at midnight. They generally travelled in pairs. That would put Le Grand near Berner Street at the time of the murder. Then consider that he showed up the next day and started paying people to lie about a suspect who never existed. An obvious motive for that might be to throw the scent off himself. I'm speculating here, but not without a strong factual standing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

Le Grand had a long history of abusing prostitutes. In 1887, in broad daylight, he beat a girl in the street and then went to a constable to try to turn her in! He would also employ his thugs to follow girls and beat them up. His reason was to get them off the street so HIS girls could have the run of the place. Consider this when you consider Schwartz's evidence of two men on the street, one pulling Liz AWAY while Pipeman loiters nearby. Le Grand may have been 40 in 1888, but he gave his age as 35. He was 5' 11" talk, with brown hair. In short, he looked like Pipeman. Also consider that he was head of the vigilance committee that met at Mile End - very near Berner Street. After their meetings, they would hit the streets at midnight. They generally travelled in pairs. That would put Le Grand near Berner Street at the time of the murder. Then consider that he showed up the next day and started paying people to lie about a suspect who never existed. An obvious motive for that might be to throw the scent off himself. I'm speculating here, but not without a strong factual standing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I agree, the speculation is warranted based on some of the factors you mention, like his taking charge of Packer and having his story given directly to a Senior Officer, and some of the "co-incidental" aspects of the descriptions......and a simple murder like the one that Stride suffers would fit in with a man with a known temper....and perhaps Schwartz was describing a shakedown of sorts by a thug on a local prostitute.

But Strides is the only murder in the Canonical Group that is at least on the surface, simple,... at least the physical elements were .....however, the complex question as to what would cause someone to then cut a victim open and extract organs isnt simple at all, nor addressed by any known cruelty and bullying.

It seems as if his type of character is the type that was assaulting women under the file name of The Whitechapel Murderer.....the man or men that were assaulting women in the Spring and perhaps on Bank Holiday in early August.....but a different kind of killing began with Polly Nichols. And it was followed by another eerily similar kill with Annie Chapman. That is followed by the murder of Liz Stride....which fits in far more easily with a Whitechapel Murderer than a Jack the Ripper, who almost certainly killed Nichols and Chapman.

You see why Im struggling to imagine some explanation that would cause cruelty to morph into gory madness.

All the best Tom

[Chris]

My thanks to Mike Covell for posting these articles. They pretty much confirm what I've suspected for years, and that is that Le Grand was investigated as a Ripper suspect. When my book on Le Grand comes out I'm pretty sure he'll fly right to the top of the suspect heep.

Just out of interest, do you have any information on whether Le Grand was in Portland Prison in 1892, or would it still be worth trying to confirm that from records?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris. For some time I've been seperated by my notes, which are all on an old broken laptop. I've been lazy about getting a new one, but lately I've been motived to do so. Now I have a fire under my butt to publish on Le Grand before someone else gets the notion to do so. So, soon I'll have all my notes and I'll see if there's something about this prison in there. But from these various reports, there's very little doubt they're referring to Le Grand.

Michael,

Le Grand wasn't just mean, he was a bonafide psychopath. I've read the transcripts of his various trials, as has Debs, and he was crazy. In 1887 he wrote a letter (in red ink) to the police commissioner threatening to burn down buildings. There was a dock fire on the night of the Nichols murder. He was involved in a bank robbery in which the next door building was used to dig through into the basement. This exact same method was earlier utilized in the post office robbery that occurred at the time of the Mitre Square murder. As already mentioned, he was a pimp with French pretenses who traveled occassionally to Paris. Mary Kelly was a prostitute with French pretenses who had travelled to Paris with a man. All circumstancial, but compelling nonetheless.
As for his capacity for violence, he threw a policeman in front of a train, threatened a cop with 'six inches of steel' to his back, and was prepared to blow up old ladies if they didn't pay him. By prepared, I mean he not only sent them threatening letters, but was found with the promised explosives and an 'infernal machine' when arrested by the police.

Le Grand actually wrote that he was 'void of all human feeling' and that a woman had wronged him so it was a woman who would pay.

Incidentally, his relationship with Batchelor ended when Le Grand beat him down in the middle of the street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Post Office robbery

Hey Tom,

Good to see you back.

Working from memory here but the Aldgate post office was raided via the skylight and not the basement wasnt it?

Im willing to be corrected.

The basement method was fairly common. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle used the same method in his Holmes books.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Monty, the last thing this board needs is both you and I 'working from memory', so I'll hold off replying to you just now. Basically, when I meant to say is that both the Post Office and Bank were invaded via the same method. I remember that as being entering from the building next door, but I could be wrong.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott