We have him...

[Suzi]

Hello Archaic,

It has certainly taught me a few things... and de Mouchi is new to me as well.
Gives meaning to the Englishism of "mooching around" perhaps? lol

best wishes

Phil

P'raps just flying around? LOL x OR just hanging/ buzzing around unwanted - like flies!!!

[perrymason]

This is an interesting thread and its been eye opening to read some of the things that are documented about this character......but.......assuming that because he was likely a fraud, imposter, cheat, bully, thug, and capable of cruelty and deceit he was therefore psychologically equipped to also perhaps have been the Ripper is as purely speculative as any theory that has been put forward regarding any suspect to-date.

Madness or known Criminal activity allows for suspect consideration I would agree,....but to suggest that by connecting any dots based on that premise he becomes a more likely suspect than any other man who fits the above criteria is premature, and unsupported by any evidence taken directly from the crimes themselves.

To kill Liz Stride all the man had to be was a thug and criminal, based on the physical and circumstantial evidence. And considering Israels story, perhaps LeGrand was one of the 2 men Schwartz says he saw.

But to kill Annie Chapman and do what was done to her requires something other than just a predilection towards criminal activities.

My best regards

[Debra A]

To me , the importance here is that there does seem to have been contemporary police suspicion of leGrand on some level, according to the report found by Mike. That in itself is worth looking at, especially the why and by whom, regardless of any personal theories one may have about the Ripper's motivation for murder.

[Mike Covell]

The thing is with this report is that it found by accident due to the fact that I was looking for reports on other local stories a year or two ago. The Hull History Centre opens next month, and this is one report that's on my "to do list" as these reports were often followed by other local newspapers carrying the story and, hopefully, adding to it!

[perrymason]

To me , the importance here is that there does seem to have been contemporary police suspicion of leGrand on some level, according to the report found by Mike. That in itself is worth looking at, especially the why and by whom, regardless of any personal theories one may have about the Ripper's motivation for murder.

I agree Deb, a great find Mike and it does shed some new light on a "contemporary" suspect status for this character.

What I was suggesting was some temperance on the thinking that this is a "link" to the killer in those crimes. I knew of a few contemporary suspects with zero connective evidence to any Ripper murder....at this point LeGrand should just be added to that small pile I would think.

Im just contesting "We Have Him".....I never liked Pat Cornwells finality in her title, and its the same kind of thing here I think.

How about...."Hmmm....what do we really know about this guy in relationship to any Ripper murder other than his after the fact grandstanding"?

My best regards

[Debra A]

Well, Perry, it does say in the article that Scotland Yard considered that they had the Whitechapel murderer under lock and key, which is where I guess Mike took the title from. you can't rewrite the newspaper reports even if they don't suit.

[perrymason]

Well, Perry, it does say in the article that Scotland Yard considered that they had the Whitechapel murderer under lock and key, which is where I guess Mike took the title from. you can't rewrite the newspaper reports even if they don't suit.

Ok....fair point .....and I wasnt disparaging Mike for naming it as such, just wanted it within the thread content that we havent solved anything but rather increased our knowledge to include a known man suspected connected to the Ripper crimes.

Best regards Deb.

[Mike Covell]

Hi Michael, I wasn't saying that it was solved, just adding commentary to an interesting newspaper article basing the title of the thread on the quote, "they have the author of the Whitechapel Tragedies under lock and key"

[Howard Brown]

Dear Mike R:

They didn't pull that information on the individual ( probably Le Grand....probably) out of thin air.

Someone went to the trouble of checking into that person's bona fides...

[perrymason]

Mike, Howard....nice to see you both....

Again, I do realize what the article announces but I dont see any evidence that warrants his consideration as The Ripper. I find it interesting that the term "Whitechapel" murders is used so long after the crimes themselves.

I dont recall anyone including all of the Whitechapel murders under one killers umbrellas...and within the evidence and the subsequent reports there is a clear distinction between Whitechapel crimes that were committed on Unfortunates before August 6th and after November 9th that year. In most senior investigators opinions, more specifically from Sept 8th to November 9th....what became for most the Jack the Ripper crimes.

So when I see "Whitechapel murders" I am unsure what specific crimes within all those unsolved attacks and murders we are talking about. Which to me suggests that perhaps his suspicion of involvement with any specific death that Fall is not well supported within the evidence available for those crimes.

Its the same kind of issue that I have with the thinking that if a contemporary suspect was unavailable on just one night when they believe Jack was the killer...then they could not be "Jack". It assumes a kill list for one....something hardly proven to anyone's complete satisfaction, and it therefore assumes motives for murders that are not present in any real evidence. Like The Stride Interruption for example.

Just semantics.

Best regards all

[Debra A]

Just a thought. Could the Western Mail article from February 1891 actually be referring to the same man?

According to Gerry Nixon's dissertation, Le Grand had previously been sentenced to two years' hard labour in June 1889:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-legrand.html

Certainly he was still in prison in February 1891, as he appears (as Chas C. Grandy - though his age, 27, appears to be incorrect) in the 1891 census of Wormwood Scrubs [RG 12/44, f. 153v].

The length of the sentence doesn't agree with the February 1891 article, but perhaps this possibility is worth considering, in view of the similarity of the wording.

This is a very interesting idea, Chris. Thanks also to Mark for posting the snippet from the Cardiff Western Mail.
LeGrand was indeed imprisoned in June 1889. The original sentence was actually 5 years penal servitude and wasn't a mistake by the papers. It later transpired that the crime LeGrand committed was not punishable by a sentence of penal servitude and so it had to be changed to one of imprisonment (2 years as Gerry Nixon righly says)
The original 5 years penal servitude could easily have been misquoted as 15 years penal servitude.
That both articles could refer to LeGrand is defiintely a possibility worth considering.

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

My thanks to Chris, who informed me the following about Portland prison records...
....unfortunately it seems there is a large gap in the records of male prisoners' licences, covering the whole of the 1890s.

Another lot of stuff possibly relating to a possible JTR suspect no longer seemingly available.

The X-files couldn't invent this stuff.

best wishes

Phil

[Chris]

My thanks to Chris, who informed me the following about Portland prison records...
....unfortunately it seems there is a large gap in the records of male prisoners' licences, covering the whole of the 1890s.

Just to clarify, the gap doesn't just relate to Portland - apparently the records of licences for the whole country have been lost for that period.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris,

Thank you Chris. It's a clarification which does help my thoughts on the issue. It's good to see that not only ...but also... does occur, to quote Mr. Peter Cook and Mr Dudley Moore.


best wishes

Phil

[Debra A]

Thanks for this information, Chris and Phil.