Suspects for Astrakhan man?

[Garry Wroe]

Because in all probability, Chris, the whole story involving Kelly and the Jewish-looking pick-up was a fabrication on Hutchinson's part.

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
We are assuming that the man described as 'Astracan' was a man of influence, which is proberly grossly untrue, I have given what I consider to be an explanation, in suggesting that as it was the day of the Lord mayors show, that would explain the attire.
If the murder of MJK was premeditated, then he could have been on his way to millers court, when Hutchinson saw him, , and Mary was walking up Commercial street, he could have explaned to her that he had tried to obtain lodgings close by[ they had previously arranged a date for the show] but they were all booked, so he was going to hang around until morning.
Could i stay with you for the rest of the night ? he asked.
I will pay you.
'Allright my luv,' you will be comftable was the reply
You will be alright for what I have told you, he muttered.
I accept all very fictional, however if the killer had singled out kelly as his victim, and realizing she had a room, and had befriended her previously, and said he would take her to the lord mayors show, what better then to dress for the occassion and call on her in the middle of the night, she would never have suspected a thing, and have let him in.
Who was Astracan?
Proberly a local man that frequented the victims watering holes, no name unfortunately.
Regards Richard.

[ChrisGeorge]

Because in all probability, Chris, the whole story involving Kelly and the Jewish-looking pick-up was a fabrication on Hutchinson's part.

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

Yes. Doesn't it appear that Hutchinson was telling the police what they wanted to hear: that the murderer was a Jew.

Chris

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

Who was Astracan? Proberly a local man that frequented the victims watering holes, no name unfortunately.

A man so local that he failed to pick up on the fact that waltzing headlong into a locality famed for its "vicious, semi-criminal" fraternity in the most conspicuous and expensive-looking attire perhaps wasn't the cleverest idea? So local that he missed the widespread speculation that the killer was a surly Jew, or the revelations in the wake of the Hanbury Street murder that he may have had some lofty medical credentials? Black package, anyone? I'm sorry, but if he was as eccentrically unstreetwise as that, I doubt he'd remain "local" for very long, and an eccentrically unstreetwise serial killer who never gets caught is even less credible.

however if the killer had singled out kelly as his victim, and realizing she had a room, and had befriended her previously, and said he would take her to the lord mayors show, what better then to dress for the occassion and call on her in the middle of the night

What better? Everything. How about, for instance, calling on her shortly before the start of the show at a reasonable hour of the morning, instead of 2.00am in the morning, dressed like a swaggering peacock and a walking advertisement for muggers and twitchy wannabe ripper-hunters? What makes you so sure she wouldn't find that unusual behaviour, if not immediately suspicious? And just to press an issue I raised earlier, it is really plausible that such a "date" would have been prearranged by the killer, thereby allowing Kelly to blab about both the meeting and the identity of the man?

Best regards,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben,
Premeditation is what I am getting at, in the case of Nichols' look what a jolly bonnet ive got', We have Stride waiting at, mayby at a pre arranged location, we even have the strange behaviour of Eddowes, and the possibility of a arranged meeting.
If any of those point to a pre arranged meeting, eg, A gift to Nichols, a meeting with Stride, and a free drinking session with Eddowes, for later favours, would the women have informed their pals of the description of there prospective admirer?
Any gift given to a victim , would give a element of trust when meeting the killer at a time when his murderous urges were strong.
I am merely using Astracans appearance, and the possible pledge to poor Kelly to escort her to the show, and mayby, just mayby the parcel was a gift for Mary, to wear or use on the occasion.
It would all enhance trust, to get her to let him in that little room.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Premeditation is what I am getting at

I appreciate that, Richard, but what about the objection I raised to it? Do you think it likely that the ripper would meet up with one or more of his victims on an earlier occasion and arrange to meet later (i.e. when he intends to kill her) when there was every possibility of the target in question blabbing about it to her friends and acquaintances. "Hey girls, I'm just off to meet Mr. Fill-in-the-Blank at Berner Street. Got to look mi best!". They don't need to be suspicious about it or provide a description necessarily, but it's still information that could prove fatal to a killer intent on bloody murder. Would the killer risk that possibility? I'm disinclined to think so, myself.

All the best,
Ben

[babybird67]

an interesting discussion...

i'm inclined to agree with Ben on this one...although i think the killer may well have been known in a casual way to his victims, it would be very implausible that he would seek out and establish a relationship like the one you suggest Richard, because it would increase the risks to himself so greatly, especially someone so conspicuous. At a time when anyone unusual in his approach to a prostitute would be drawing attention to himself, as well. Your theories are always interesting though Richard...keep them coming.

Also, how plausible would it be to Mary that someone of his obvious means could not find lodgings somewhere? There must have been much more upmarket places to stay for him, even outside of the immediate area, which he would be much more likely to reside in, i think.

Hutch, like Liz Stride, is one of those things that keep me perennially interested in the case, because i just cannot make up my mind about him, or her. All i can conclude is that Astrakhan as depicted by Hutch did not exist; what i conclude from that about Hutch's motives for concocting him never seems conclusive to me...i just cant make up my mind! Oh well, a woman's prerogative i guess!

[dixon9]

i have to agree with ben as well,surely astrakhan man was not the most street wise,walking around that area in the early hours,dressed up to the nines.Or did Hutchinson make up the 'dress' of the man,or seeing a man atall?

Dixon9
still learning

[ChrisGeorge]

Do you think it likely that the ripper would meet up with one or more of his victims on an earlier occasion and arrange to meet later (i.e. when he intends to kill her) when there was every possibility of the target in question blabbing about it to her friends and acquaintances. "Hey girls, I'm just off to meet Mr. Fill-in-the-Blank at Berner Street. Got to look mi best!". They don't need to be suspicious about it or provide a description necessarily, but it's still information that could prove fatal to a killer intent on bloody murder. Would the killer risk that possibility? I'm disinclined to think so, myself.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben

Don't forget that the other women were competitors as well as friends and associates. If Richard is right about the scenario, the Ripper could have told them, "Don't tell anyone, and I will make it your while." There is a worthwhile strain of thought that the killer was a man who gave the women "gifts" -- Polly's bonnet or the bandana that several of the women had. Also the fact that none of the women had any money on them might indicate he gave them money but then stole it back.

Chris

[c.d.]

I appreciate that, Richard, but what about the objection I raised to it? Do you think it likely that the ripper would meet up with one or more of his victims on an earlier occasion and arrange to meet later (i.e. when he intends to kill her) when there was every possibility of the target in question blabbing about it to her friends and acquaintances. "Hey girls, I'm just off to meet Mr. Fill-in-the-Blank at Berner Street. Got to look mi best!". They don't need to be suspicious about it or provide a description necessarily, but it's still information that could prove fatal to a killer intent on bloody murder. Would the killer risk that possibility? I'm disinclined to think so, myself.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben,

I am not so sure that I agree. First of all, I doubt that he would have given his correct name. Giving her friend a physical description of him? Maybe. Now if she said I met him at the Ten Bells that is something that could be checked. Ask around if anybody had been seen talking to the victim. Still he would have taken a similar chance on the street being seen by someone talking to the victim. It also might have given Jack a perverse thrill to think that his victims considered him a date. So, I don't dismiss it out of hand.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I don't think that it necessarily has to be an all or nothing scenario as to the Astrakhan man's existence. I think he did exist but for some unknown reason Hutchinson embellished his appearance.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi Chris,

If Richard is right about the scenario, the Ripper could have told them, "Don't tell anyone, and I will make it your while.

While that may have worked before it became an established certainty that a vicious serial killer was on the prowl in the very district in which they were plying their trade, I can't see how it could have avoided raising some serious alarm bells once the aptly named Autumn of Terror was truly in ernest. Personally, I can see how "Here's a gift, let's meet later. Tell nobody who I am or where you're going" would have given anyone the heeby-jeebies, but at a time when women (including prostitutes) were afraid to leave their lodging houses for fear of bumping into the killer, I can picture that fear increasing ten-fold.

The exception, I suppose, would be if the individual in question was a casual acquaintance from the area whose custom that had received on a number of previous occasions, but it doesn't seem likely that that sort of individual would be the type to fork out for any significant gifts. As for the absence of money found on any of the victims, I'm more inclined to attribute this to the killer having similar(ish) financial circumstances to his victims.

First of all, I doubt that he would have given his correct name. Giving her friend a physical description of him?

It wouldn't matter if he didn't, CD. A simple reference to the location and the fact that she was meeting a man was all that was required to lay a simple trap for an unsuspecting and imprudent ripper. The only serial killer I can think of who resorted to a similar strategy was Arthur Shawcross, and it was a contributory factor, I recall, to his ultimate undoing.

I don't think that it necessarily has to be an all or nothing scenario as to the Astrakhan man's existence. I think he did exist

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, granted, but having weighed up the evidence, I consider it most likely that Astrakhan never existed except in Hutchinson's imagination.

All the best,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you suggesting that the prostitute would go to the police and say "I met a young man who may be the Ripper?" Arranging for a date is not a crime. Would the police go and stake out the place based on what they had been told? Seems highly unlikely.

c.d.

[richardnunweek]

Hello all,
I have never suggested Astracan was a man of means, infact he may have been far from so, if he for instance had been the man kelly took to her former lodgings shortly before her death, he was unlikely to have had private accomodation, for they could have gone there.
I would say he was in lodgings , but as a private lodger, not in a crowded house.
I just invented a scenerio which fitted the conversation heard, and that might have hinted at premeditation.
Lets look at the events of the evening of the 8th.
When Barnett called on her Mrs harvey was heard to say' well I shall not see you tonight Mary Jane'.
Mary was seen exiting the court at 9am , dressed in her jacket and bonnet,
Question was she going out to meet someone?
Mary was seen at midnight by Mrs Cox wearing drab clothing.
Question .
Why was she not then wearing the clothes she wore three hours before?
Question .
Did her date fail to show, and she returned home to take off her best clothes because of the rain?
Was the man that she hoped to meet, the man seen with kelly at 2am.
Did he invent a sob story , that kelly believed.
Summing up.
Kelly had arranged to meet Astracan around 930pm that evening , she told Her friend Maria, that her evening was arranged , and she wanted privacy that night, she also told her date , that they had the room to themselves,
But he had no intention to be seen with her in the pubs, his intention was to call on her in the early hours of the morning and tap on her door, however she beat him to it, and because she had no reason to distrust him , invited him back with the words 'You will be comtable'.
This murder was to be special to the killer, and as he knew kelly was not the type that would go down a court for sex, he had to gain her trust to accomodate her room.
I appreciate I speculate, however that can only fuel new ideas , and one could prove useful one day.
Regards Richard.

[Dr. John Watson]

The "astracan man" is a figment of Hutchinson's imagination, therefore any discussion of "his" identity, occupation, residence, etc., is meaningless. Had any police officer believed such a person actually existed, they would not have given up on finding him so quickly. Hutchinson, on the other hand, was real. He knew the victim and was seen loitering outside her apartment around the time of her death. Why would he make up a story about seeing Mary with this mythical toff? You figure it out.