Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[scarletpimpernel]

Hi All

From what I could see in the programme, the coroner Dr. Peter Dean was basically saying, the wounds in ALL the victims first started with a slit on the throat and then the abdomen, he never said there were any different cuts with each body. The doctor explained this clearly case by case with a drawing. He should know, he is the pathologist.

[dixon9]

maybe different methods of organ removal due to the time of murder?
AC 'may have been ' killed when almost light ,just a thought

dixon9
still learning

[scarletpimpernel]

Thank you Maurice,

Sometimes its good to laugh at the more outlandish theories.

Lyn Cates,

To which suspect does the hand-writing of rat are you comparing to ? Someone wrote the Lusk letter and I don't think for a moment it was a rat.

[scarletpimpernel]

maybe different methods of organ removal due to the time of murder?
AC 'may have been ' killed when almost light ,just a thought

dixon9
still learning

Stride's body was still warm when she was found.

[Bob Hinton]

certainly not as 'out there' as Bob's giant rat theory, bless his bones.

Tom Wescott

Sorry, why do you keep banging on about a 'giant rat'. I have never spoken, hinted at or mentioned a giant rat. Indeed if you had bothered to read my post you will see that I specifically stated the rat need only be of normal size.

I realise that to try and ridicule my ideas you have to try and make them seem absurd, but please stop stating that I have a 'giant rat theory'.

If you can't debate on what I have actually said, then you are not debating you are doing an Al Gore - lying!

[dixon9]

scarlet

i was refering to the times of the murders,i.e Annies could have been as late as 5.30am which meant it was nearly light,while the others would have been in darkness,hence my assumption about different method to the cutting open of the bodies.As said just a thought

dixon9
still learning

[Tom_Wescott]

Bob,

Your theory has long been referred to as the 'giant rat' theory, so I didn't coin that. It's just what I know it as. But since it irks you, I will call it simply your rat theory and will set anyone else straight who suggests you champion a giant rat for the job. Either way, a rat didn't run off with the organs and surely you must understand how unlikely this theory is.

Trevor,

In spite of my rose-tinted minority view that the Ripper cut open the abdomens of these women in order to take organs that did, in fact, show up missing, I must say that it's awfully convenient of you to remove Mary Kelly from the equation simply because her heart was discovered missing before she was removed to the mortuary. If we keep Kelly in the equation, your argument becomes a house of cards. You then have to grapple with the fact that the Ripper - not some mortuary attendant - not only opened the women up but also pulled out their intestines and put them over the womens' shoulder. What was he getting after if not organs? And what of the fact that different mortuaries and attendants were used? What of the fact that Mann as not left alone with Chapman's corpse? Was everyone in on this conspiracy?

I appreciate your 30 years of experience and have found many of your posts insightful, but surely you can see the problems with this particular theory of yours, can you not?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[scarletpimpernel]

Hi Tom

Yes, the organ removal is a sort of trophy for the killer. Like when a fisherman hangs a sword-fish on his wall. Sometimes its cannivalism like in the Duffy case in the U.S. where a serial killer was boiling his victim's organs, even thought to the outside world, Duffy looked a normal person, a kind charming and handsome man who wouldn't kill a fly according to his neighbours. Duffy was only caught when one of his victims escaped from his house of horrors. otherwise, we might still be looking for all those "missing persons" he had already killed. In the ripper case, the killer meant to inflict an extra psychological shock by putting the intestines on the victim's shoulder, because he knew it would have that extra upsetting effect on the police when they came round to see the body.

[Tom_Wescott]

On the ripper case, the killer meant to inflict an extra psychological shock by putting the intestines on the victim's shoulder, because he knew it would have that extra upsetting effect on the police when they came round to see the body.

Hi Pimp. That could be the case, but more than likely I think the Ripper was just trying to get them out of his way. That's another one of my cutting edge ideas.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

looking about

Hello Tom. I get your point. (Couldn't resist.)

Frankly, the intestines placed over the shoulder look EXACTLY like one looking for something (now where did I put that . . . ?). Can you expatiate on what you think was being sought?

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn. I'm wildly speculating here, but I'm gonna say he wasn't looking for anything in particular in the case of Chapman, was looking for a kidney with Eddowes, and a heart with Kelly.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Trevor Marriott]

Tom
I as stated previoulsy deliberately left kelly out of the equation as i like many others do not beleive she was killed by the same hand as Eddowes and Chapman.

As far as her heart being taken away I think the report states the heart was missing from the pericardium. It was never confirmed that it was missing from the room. So i htink it is your reply that falls flat like a house of cards.

As to your other points you seek to argue i think you should have read my previous posts more clearly,as your repiles are nonsensical.

There is another plausible explantion for the intestines being laid out. It is a fact that the killer subjected the victims bodies to a horrific frenzied mutilation. Part of that was ripping open the abdomens. You may not be aware that a human abdomen contains a large and small intestine. The small intestine measure 7 metres in length. The large measures 1.5 metres. Both of these organs are coiled tightly in the abdomen. There is every likelihood that when the abdomens were ripped open piercing the abdominal linings the intestines recoiled outwards making it look like they had been removed.

I seem to recall reading that Peter Sutcliffe the Yorkshire Ripper used a knife on one of his victims which caused the intestines to recoil outwards.

[Monty]

Trevor,

Is recoiling common?

I cannot remember which victim, Eddowes or Chapman, but the Doctor at the scence claims the intestines were 'placed'.

Certainly Brown states a portion of Eddowes small intestine was placed between her arm and abdomen.

Are they in error?

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Monty
I am not a medical expert but having regard to how i have explained it, it is a distinct possibility. A small stab wound would be enough to allow a small quantity of intestine to come out through that wound. I know this is fact as I once dealt with such a case and the weapon used was a very small knife.

So imagine the results when someone ripped fully open an abdomen. The law of physics surely must suggest that 7 metres of intestine coiled tightly in the abdomen isnt just going to sit there when the abdomen subjected to major trauma its going to come out how far it can recoil I cannot say.

But again i guess the "killer removing the organs brigade" will do their level best to try to negate this. It is an issue no to be discarded outright.

As to how the intestines were described can anyone positively say if they recoiled outwards and finsihed up in a certain position or they were placed in that position. i would be very surprised if these doctors etc had ever come across this type of murder scene before or any bodies mutilated in such a way.

The report from the Chapman crime scene regarding his issue "The small intestines and other portions were lying on the right side of the body on the "ground" above the right shoulder, but attached. " This clearly illustates my point, no evidence to show intestines had been laid out by the killer in any way. The small intestine is also located on the right side of the body.

I am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong but no report of Eddowes intestines being laid out if that be the case its again another factor which adds even more weight to the removal of the organs at the mortuary, because those organs and in particular he kidney would have been almost impossibe to remove under those conditions.

[Monty]

Trevor,

Recoiling as far as the shoulder?

The Eddowes SOC sketch shows tge intestines piled off her shoulder with a long straight piece leading to her abdomen. This isnt condusive to a uniform recoil is it?

Im aware of you lack of medical knowledge, and mine isnt great either, however logic is telling me that the recoil would be gradual and not like a spring, for the want of a better phrase.

Monty