Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[lynn cates]

looking about

Hello Tom. I get your point. (Couldn't resist.)

Frankly, the intestines placed over the shoulder look EXACTLY like one looking for something (now where did I put that . . . ?). Can you expatiate on what you think was being sought?

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

On the ripper case, the killer meant to inflict an extra psychological shock by putting the intestines on the victim's shoulder, because he knew it would have that extra upsetting effect on the police when they came round to see the body.

Hi Pimp. That could be the case, but more than likely I think the Ripper was just trying to get them out of his way. That's another one of my cutting edge ideas.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[scarletpimpernel]

Hi Tom

Yes, the organ removal is a sort of trophy for the killer. Like when a fisherman hangs a sword-fish on his wall. Sometimes its cannivalism like in the Duffy case in the U.S. where a serial killer was boiling his victim's organs, even thought to the outside world, Duffy looked a normal person, a kind charming and handsome man who wouldn't kill a fly according to his neighbours. Duffy was only caught when one of his victims escaped from his house of horrors. otherwise, we might still be looking for all those "missing persons" he had already killed. In the ripper case, the killer meant to inflict an extra psychological shock by putting the intestines on the victim's shoulder, because he knew it would have that extra upsetting effect on the police when they came round to see the body.

[Tom_Wescott]

Bob,

Your theory has long been referred to as the 'giant rat' theory, so I didn't coin that. It's just what I know it as. But since it irks you, I will call it simply your rat theory and will set anyone else straight who suggests you champion a giant rat for the job. Either way, a rat didn't run off with the organs and surely you must understand how unlikely this theory is.

Trevor,

In spite of my rose-tinted minority view that the Ripper cut open the abdomens of these women in order to take organs that did, in fact, show up missing, I must say that it's awfully convenient of you to remove Mary Kelly from the equation simply because her heart was discovered missing before she was removed to the mortuary. If we keep Kelly in the equation, your argument becomes a house of cards. You then have to grapple with the fact that the Ripper - not some mortuary attendant - not only opened the women up but also pulled out their intestines and put them over the womens' shoulder. What was he getting after if not organs? And what of the fact that different mortuaries and attendants were used? What of the fact that Mann as not left alone with Chapman's corpse? Was everyone in on this conspiracy?

I appreciate your 30 years of experience and have found many of your posts insightful, but surely you can see the problems with this particular theory of yours, can you not?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[dixon9]

scarlet

i was refering to the times of the murders,i.e Annies could have been as late as 5.30am which meant it was nearly light,while the others would have been in darkness,hence my assumption about different method to the cutting open of the bodies.As said just a thought

dixon9
still learning

[Bob Hinton]

certainly not as 'out there' as Bob's giant rat theory, bless his bones.

Tom Wescott

Sorry, why do you keep banging on about a 'giant rat'. I have never spoken, hinted at or mentioned a giant rat. Indeed if you had bothered to read my post you will see that I specifically stated the rat need only be of normal size.

I realise that to try and ridicule my ideas you have to try and make them seem absurd, but please stop stating that I have a 'giant rat theory'.

If you can't debate on what I have actually said, then you are not debating you are doing an Al Gore - lying!

[scarletpimpernel]

maybe different methods of organ removal due to the time of murder?
AC 'may have been ' killed when almost light ,just a thought

dixon9
still learning

Stride's body was still warm when she was found.

[scarletpimpernel]

Thank you Maurice,

Sometimes its good to laugh at the more outlandish theories.

Lyn Cates,

To which suspect does the hand-writing of rat are you comparing to ? Someone wrote the Lusk letter and I don't think for a moment it was a rat.

[dixon9]

maybe different methods of organ removal due to the time of murder?
AC 'may have been ' killed when almost light ,just a thought

dixon9
still learning

[scarletpimpernel]

Hi All

From what I could see in the programme, the coroner Dr. Peter Dean was basically saying, the wounds in ALL the victims first started with a slit on the throat and then the abdomen, he never said there were any different cuts with each body. The doctor explained this clearly case by case with a drawing. He should know, he is the pathologist.

[Trevor Marriott]

Monty

You are totally correct.

Jon Guy

Ambient light or not the uteri of Eddowes and Chapman were removed differenty. Two different methods two different people. ?

If Pc Watkins had to shine his light on the body. So how could the killer performed major organ removal in the dark. i am sorry people in my opinion and that of modern day experts it just didnt happen.

Forget about Kelly as stated there are mnay issues with her murder which have been documented by other on here.

[dixon9]

Mr Marriott

in the case of Annie Chapman i thought two nurses stayed with the body(Mary Simonds and Frances Wright).When they arrived at the mortuary the body was on the ambulance,they stripped and washed the body(on the say so of Inspector Chandler)
Chandler at the inquest said he had not told the nurses to strip and wash the body.
I know my summing up is a bit long winded,but i cant see who could have took the organs unless the nurses were working together

Dixon9

[Monty]

Jon,

The position of the killer in relation to the bodies may have had a bearing to.

I was always taught 'beyond reasonable doubt' was simply translated as what the average Joe Public felt was plausible.

Monty

[Jon Guy]

The organs were removed differently from both Eddowes and Chapman the abdomens were also opened differently to effect the removals.

It is fact that the bodies of Chapman and eddowes were taken to different mortuaries so it suggests to me that two diferent people removed the organs. by difefrent methods. Had it been the killer sureley he would have used the same MO. So you cannot discount the likelihod that the organs were removed at the mortuaries.

Hi Trevor

Regarding the undoubted differences in the opening of the abdomens, isn`t this simply due to the ambient light available to the killer?

P.C. Watkins had to shine his torch on Eddowes, whereas John Richardson could already see around the yard.

Hence Eddowes was ripped open, and Chapman and Kelly had panels removed.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trev,

If you ever sit on a jury be sure and look up what is "beyond a reasonable doubt"

To save Tom and everyone else the effort, the reasonable doubt dictum is interpreted as meaning "no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts." Do you seriously suggest that no other logical explanation can account for the missing oregans than your theory?
Don.

The point is that Tom went out on a limb stating that he was certain beyond a reasonable doubt that in his opinion the organs were removed by the killer, not me you should read the posts correctly before rushing to reply

The interpretation you stated clearly shows that Tom is one of a small minority who look at the Ripper case through rose tinted spectacles and for whatever reason are not even prepared to consider alternatives. Clearly there is another explanation for the removal of the organs which as i have stated contains many relevevant facts to suggest this is more than a wild speculative theory and should not be dismised lightly.

Everything is not set in stone !!!!!!!!!!