Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[scarletpimpernel]

Strictly speaking, doesn't that only demonstrate that Mann wore his workhouse uniform to the inquest, Chris?

Sam, correct.

That only demonstrates that Mann wore his workhouse uniform to the inquest whilst in another report we are told that this workhouse uniform was not always worn by sick patients. Mann was a sick person. Chris is only trying to put words into my mouth or trying to interpret what he wants to understand I said, instead of what I'm really saying.

The mortuary assistants also had their own uniform as shown in the photos of mortuary attendants in another thread so this means that Robert Mann had two uniforms 1) The mortuary Uniform 2 ) The workhouse uniform and there were times, that he didn't wear a uniform at all according to that report about sick people at the workhouse.

He lived at the workhouse for 10 years and the distance between the scenes of the crimes from the workhouse were very close, so its entirely possible that he could have sneaked back into the workhouse unnoticed.

But Robert Mann was a nearly life-long resident of specifically the Whitechapel Union's Charles Street facility - even following its conversion to Union Infirmary. So why would he have worn a workhouse uniform, if in fact he resided in the Whitechapel Union Infirmary - as opposed to the Whitechapel Union Workhouse - , in 1888?

…

My guess, is that he was discharged from the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, upon its relocation to South Grove, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, in ~1872; and that as a result of his continued state of destitution, he was re-admitted to the facility, from which he had been discharged, upon its conversion to Whitechapel Union Infirmary.

But, why would an able-bodied pauper be admitted to the Union Infirmary, rather than the Union Workhouse, on the basis of his being "Destitute"? Perhaps, so that he could fulfill certain infirmary-based responsibilities: e.g. that of 'Mortuary Attendant'.

Point of Clarification:

I am suggesting that Robert Mann was 'technically' a uniformed inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse - in any case, he was a uniformed ward of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union - , even though he actually resided in the Whitechapel Union Infirmary.

Robert Mann is an outright non-starter!

And by the way ...

Anyone who is not insulted by Mr. Trow's suggestion that a uniformed Robert Mann was able to come-and-go as he damn well pleased, from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, in 1888 - purely on the basis that a non-uniformed Jack London done a bunk ("a"; as in 'one', i.e. 'once') from the Whitechapel Union Casual Ward, in 1902 - ; should think about what he/she is being asked to believe.

[Fisherman]

Scarletpimpernel writes:

"In fact, there are many in here like you who were already dismissing this suspect without even having bothered to look at the documentary much less read the book."

Perhaps so, Scarlet. But then again, there are those who DID read the book - like me - and found that it presents no viable case at all in relation to Mann and his comings and goings in clothing that "could not be told from the ordinary mans clothes" or however it was put - it´s along these general lines at any rate.
This is what Trow suggests with no - NO! -tangible backing up at all but for the "if London could do it, then so could Mann". After that reflection, Trow simply writes on each occasion that Mann simply "slipped into" the mortuary to choose a knife and then hit the streets.
I think Tommy Cooper would have offered the best comment on these suggestions on Trow´s behalf, and with an equal amount of research weight added to it: "Just like that!"

I´m sure that Trow is a very likeable fellow, just as I am sure that the publishers of the book went a few paces too far advertising it before it hit the market. The combination, though, has not resulted in a very good book, I´m afraid - and it´s choice of suspect is even worse. George Chapman is an infinitely better suspect in my opinion - and for those out there that know what I think of Chapmans overall viability as a suspect, well ...

The best,
Fisherman

Sick patients, because they were not subject to the deterrent rules, were not ALWAYS put into workhouse uniform. Mann had fits, therefore; there were times when he did not use his workhouse uniform.

Does anyone know if Mann was (due to his 'fits') diagosed with Epilepsy, or another illness, and listed as a sick patient? Only, I came across this...http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=O...0green&f=false

"The People's Health: 1830-1910"; Francis Barrymore Smith

"Sick patients, because they were not subject to the deterrence rules, were not always put into workhouse uniform."

This is clearly in reference to those paupers, who were admitted as 'patients' to Poor Law infirmaries, specifically on the basis of infirmity, rather than destitution. All able-bodied paupers, who were admitted as 'inmates' to Poor Law facilities, on the basis of destitution, were put into uniform.

In accordance with the Metropolitan Poor Act 1867, the Whitechapel Poor Law Union …

- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories')
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (portion within the County of Middlesex)
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- [The Liberty of the Tower]
--- [The Precinct of Old Tower Without]
--- [The Tower]
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (portion within the County of Middlesex)

… separated its workhouse and infirmary facilities, by constructing a new Union Workhouse in South Grove, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town; whilst converting its existing workhouse/infirmary in Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, into its Union Infirmary, in ~1872.

This would surely have enhanced the distinction between non-uniformed patients of the Union Infirmary, and uniformed able-bodied inmates of the Union Workhouse; in as much as they were physically separated by a distance of ~1.50 miles.

But Robert Mann was a nearly life-long resident of specifically the Whitechapel Union's Charles Street facility - even following its conversion to Union Infirmary. So why would he have worn a workhouse uniform, if in fact he resided in the Whitechapel Union Infirmary - as opposed to the Whitechapel Union Workhouse - , in 1888?

The beginnning of this section of the registers is unusual in that it starts with approximately 550 records which are arranged alphabetically rather than by date and some of the admission dates for these alpha records go back in to the 1870s. But for completeness I am including them.
I will post in sections of 100 records to keep these sections manageable.
The first of the alpha records is below
Chris


"Whitechapel Infirmary Admission and Discharge Register 1885-1887",,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
"Date","Surname","Forename(s)","Age","Admitted From","Married/Single","Calling","Cause","Discharged","Remarks"

The third instalment:-
05/03/1873,"Mann","Robert",37,"No home","Single","Labourer","Destitute",,

The actual register can be seen by clicking "here", downloading File Ref. "1/20", and scrolling down to #285.

Robert Mann was admitted to the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, in March 1873 - in all likelihood, never to be discharged, until his death, in 1896.

My guess, is that he was discharged from the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, upon its relocation to South Grove, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, in ~1872; and that as a result of his continued state of destitution, he was re-admitted to the facility, from which he had been discharged, upon its conversion to Whitechapel Union Infirmary.

But, why would an able-bodied pauper be admitted to the Union Infirmary, rather than the Union Workhouse, on the basis of his being "Destitute"? Perhaps, so that he could fulfill certain infirmary-based responsibilities: e.g. that of 'Mortuary Attendant'.

So, apart from his workhouse uniform; what clothing does anyone actually believe Robert Mann would have owned, in 1888?

And if anyone thinks that Mann might have changed into 'civilian clothing', on those occasions, during which he was suffering from 'fits'; then think again.

[Chris]

Strictly speaking, doesn't that only demonstrate that Mann wore his workhouse uniform to the inquest, Chris?

Of course, but it's clear from that that he wasn't excused workhouse uniform because of illness, which is what scarletpimpernel is apparently trying to suggest.

[Sam Flynn]

I repeat, we know that Mann did wear workhouse uniform, because it is stated in the reports of the Nichols inquest.

Strictly speaking, doesn't that only demonstrate that Mann wore his workhouse uniform to the inquest, Chris?

[Chris]

Sick patients, because they were not subject to the deterrent rules, were not ALWAYS put into workhouse uniform. Mann had fits, therefore; there were times when he did not use his workhouse uniform.

That's almost a textbook example of a logical fallacy. I repeat, we know that Mann did wear workhouse uniform, because it is stated in the reports of the Nichols inquest.

Chris, there are reports that the Whitechapel workhouse was one of the easiest spikes to go in and out unnoticed.

Is this a reference to the comment that Jack London quotes? Because there's nothing in that remark about going out of the workhouse unnoticed, let alone going back in. It just relates to the rigour with which the inmates were searched on admission. And in any case it all relates to people in the casual ward, not the workhouse proper.

[dixon9]

In regard to the Nichols murder,if we say time of death was around 3.30am,it is reported that the police had to go and get Mann from the workhouse(he arrived at montuary with the keys in between 5.00am-5.20am).
So obviously if Mann is 'Jack' we are to believe he returned to be let into the workhouse say 4.00am,then police came to get him before five,surely someone in the workhouse would have noted his coming and goings?
Sorry Mann imo is not a viable suspect.

Dixon9
still learning

[scarletpimpernel]

Chris,

Sick patients, because they were not subject to the deterrent rules, were not ALWAYS put into workhouse uniform. Mann had fits, therefore; there were times when he did not use his workhouse uniform.

Chris, there are reports that the Whitechapel workhouse was one of the easiest spikes to go in and out unnoticed. The thing is, that for reasons of your own, you refuse to see the evidence. In fact, there are many in here like you who were already dismissing this suspect without even having bothered to look at the documentary much less read the book.

[Chris]

Couldn't it be possible that Robert Mann on those occassions was wearing his mortuary attire rather than the workhouse's ?

This is getting a bit tedious. As has already been pointed out several times, we know from press reports of the Nichols inquest that Mann did wear workhouse uniform.

But really the issue of workhouse uniform is a side issue. The point is that workhouse inmates simply were not allowed to roam the streets at will - let alone in the early hours of the morning.

As far as I've seen, Mei Trow's only response to this difficulty is to point out that Jack London, when he was an inmate of the casual ward, was able to run out of the workhouse gates and evade recapture one day about 15 years later. Unless someone can come up with a suggestion as to how Mann could have escaped from the workhouse at night without being detected - not just once but repeatedly - he should not be considered a suspect at all.

[scarletpimpernel]

I fail to see how Robert Mann is a suspect - there is not a jot of evidence, nor a contemporary allegation, to suggest such a thing. The FBI profile is worthless. Local butchers, and many other locals, were looked at in 1888 as suspects. I don't know where you get the idea that they weren't. We are all aware of the mortuary attendants who gave inquest evidence. All the victims did not end up on 'his slab.' Modern theorists have consdidered local suspects. I really don't know where some people get their ideas from.

I somehow missed this one.

Just because Mann was not mentioned as a suspect doesn't mean that he has to be innocent. It is arrogant to say so. You only have to see as it says above, that inmates in workhouses " were not ALWAYS put into workhouse uniforms. Now, take a look at the thread where they are discussing about the mortuary attendants attire and you will see from the photographs of that era that mortuary attendants wore clothing similar to a gentleman with hats and all. Couldn't it be possible that Robert Mann on those occassions was wearing his mortuary attire rather than the workhouse's ?

[scarletpimpernel]

Hello Phil,

Naturally all authors would like their suspects to fit, otherwise there wouldn't be any point in writing a book.

[Phil Carter]

Scarlet, John
Thank you for your replies.

The plain fact is that I have been off sick a while, and have completely missed this book. Having seen the trailers on the net, I did a quick piece of catching up. I apologise for the seemingly hurried and unknowing response.

As regard will we ever find out the truth.. probably not. But there is so much to be gained from the last 25 years or so.. and the knowledge we NOW posess tells me that there is always a chance of uncovering something from somewhere. SPE correctly points out, this case has it's valleys, peaks and troughs.. and at quiet times, when SO MUCH previously has been discovered, traced, searched for and found, at times all in a rush from many directions. Expectation takes hold.
It is that fact that keeps me from becoming totally cynical, and my mind open to possibilities.
The trail has gone cold for a while, yes, and at those times people DO pop up and revert back to "theory to fit" method.

best wishes

Phil

[John Bennett]

Robert Mann, according to Mei Trow, historian, is the latest documentary offering as a JTR suspect for our small screens.
The recently announced Discovery Channel programme, clips of which are available on the web, reveals a new suspect...

As to conclusions, proof etc etc, the researchers amongst us will no doubt either prove or disprove this new theory in a very short time, within days of all having seen the programme. Am uncertain here, but I believe it is to be screened on Nov 7th.

Phil

As you appear to be in Norway at the moment, I assume that the documentary is only now being screened outside the UK. Over here it was broadcast on 11 October and again 2 days later. The book came out on the 16th October.

Regards
JB

[scarletpimpernel]

A mystery without solution

Phil,

You must know that this is going to remain without solution, since the murderer was never caught. None of the books give a good explanation how the murderer escaped with what must have been a very bloody deed. When a person's throat is slashed, the heart is still pumping and blood is spattered everywhere, yet the murderer seems to have escaped unnoticed by anyone, just the victims bodies lying at the scene of the crime. Stryde's body was still warm when she was found. Where did the murderer successfully hid himself so quickly shortly after murdering this woman ? we will never know...