Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[scarletpimpernel]

Without wanting to get too embroiled in minutae, I have never timed these walking distances myself, and everybody walks at a different pace, obviously. According to my TomTom (and there is no reason to say these are absolutes, they're just sat-nav walking route estimates and modern day ones at that), these are the approx. walking times from the Workhouse (using Trow's 7):

To George Yard - 12 mins
To Buck's Row - 5 mins (I'd say less)
To 29 Hanbury Street - 8 mins
To Berner Street - 11 mins
To Mitre Square - 17 mins
To Dorset Street - 11 mins
To Castle Alley - 12 mins

There would obviously be a certain amount of variation owing to now non-existent shortcuts etc.

Make of it what thou wilt!

John,

Thank you for that that is quite impressive. All in all, these distances can be covered very quickly by a man running very fast and of course, not even counting the non-existent shortcuts that existed once but are no longer there.

Chris,

Please bear with me, I will have to look on this thread and read carefully who posted the link about the Whitechappel spikes being easy to dodge, as I scroll all these pages to find where I read it. Is that Okay ?

[lynn cates]

contingency

Hello Scarlet. Of course, that's contingent on a 52 year old gent being able to run at all.

The best.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Scarlet. Of course, that's contingent on a 52 year old gent being able to run at all.

... and not having a fit.

[scarletpimpernel]

Lyn,

But if you read carefully... John Bennett calculations are WALKING distance.
The running was my assumption.

[wisfisher]

I watched Mr. Trows documentary last night. The program seemed to imply that all the ripper victims were taken to the same morgue.

Nichols was taken to the Whitechapel workhouse infirmary Morgue.

Chapman was taken to the Whitechapel workhouse infirmary Morgue.

Stride was taken to the St. George's morgue. Probably the same building Mr. Trow was walking around in the show.

Eddowes was taken to the Golden Lane Morgue.

Kelly was taken to the Shoreditch morgue.


I enjoyed the program but I just wanted to clarify this morgue information.


Tom

[John Bennett]

Lyn,

But if you read carefully... John Bennett calculations are WALKING distance.
The running was my assumption.

Indeed, Scarletpimpernel,

And those walking times are extremely approximate. That's just me covering my back, as it were!

[lynn cates]

walk, don't run

Hello Scarlet, Granted. I was addressing my remarks to you. I could see Robert walking rather quickly, but hardly running.

The best.
LC

[scarletpimpernel]

I watched Mr. Trows documentary last night. The program seemed to imply that all the ripper victims were taken to the same morgue.

Nichols was taken to the Whitechapel workhouse infirmary Morgue.

Chapman was taken to the Whitechapel workhouse infirmary Morgue.

Stride was taken to the St. George's morgue. Probably the same building Mr. Trow was walking around in the show.

Eddowes was taken to the Golden Lane Morgue.

Kelly was taken to the Shoreditch morgue.


I enjoyed the program but I just wanted to clarify this morgue information.


Tom

Tom

I got the same impression too, that all the prostitutes landed in Mann's lab but as you point out that is not right.

Lyn

I know of older people than 52. who run marathons. In that vein... we must eliminate Tumblety too. heh,heh

[lynn cates]

et alii

Hello Scarlet. Not to mention D'Onston, the chap with the gammy leg.

The best.
LC

[dixon9]

good stuff

I am of the belief that 'jack' was probably a very cunning man,which for me also rules out Mann along with many other reasons.
At Polly's inquest Mann stated," He could not remember Insp Helson being present,as he was confused"

Not unless he was acting the fool,to throw us (121 years on) off the scent?

[scarletpimpernel]

Hello Scarlet. Not to mention D'Onston, the chap with the gammy leg.

The best.
LC

Lynn,

Last seen hopping away from the scene..

[John Bennett]

Just a little snippet from the 'front' as it were:

As a little experiment, I always ask my tour groups how many victims they think JTR had. More often than not the answer is 5 or 6 with some wilder variations scattered about (30, 120 etc). This you would expect from a random collection of curious folk.

In the last few weeks, lots of people have been saying 7 and several admit to having seen the Mann documentary.

This, I believe, is a neat example of how theories presented in the mass media can percolate into general thinking on the case. It's happened before and will undoubtably happen many times in the future.

[lynn cates]

popular imagination

Hello John. Quite right. Sad but true.

The best.
LC

[Monstrosity]

Robert Mann does not work on a number of levels. For a start if you look at the case presented by Trow it falls down as soon as you ask the question ‘Why do you not suspect the other mortuary attendant who worked alongside Mann?’
All the reasons you give for Mann equally fits the other chap.
In Trows other Ripper book which was published in 1997 I don’t believe he even considers Mann to be a suspect. Why not? All the information he now presents to support his theory was available then.
Now if you look at Mann himself, the first thing that crops up is that he is simply too old. The person who made those mutilations was suffering from some form of advanced mental problem. This would have manifested itself long before a person reaches the age of 50. This is one reason why most of the sadistic, mutilating type of killer seems to fit the age range 25-35.
Trying to add McKenzie to the tally is simply nonsense. It is obvious that the person who killed her wanted it to appear like a ripper killing, but couldn’t actually go through with the mutilations. The reason for this given by Trow, illness, simply doesn’t compute. If Mann was too weak to slice someone in 1889, how come he lasted another six or seven years?
He also reverses himself in the case of the Kelly murder. Trow states that his aim was to murder someone in a place where he could spend a lot of time on the mutilations. Why then after Kelly does he revert to killing on the street where such opportunity is severely curtailed?
It just doesn’t make sense.

I am a n00b but mostly agree with this post although the fact that Mann was over 50 is misleading. How old was Albert Fish before he was caught? Also on another note the idea of the killings stopping does not necessarily mean anything either. How long did BTK go without killing anyone? I think profiles are useful but often wrong. Gary Ridgway killed more prostitutes than JTR was married for 14 years and was said to be a "wonderful husband." So the idea of a lone wolf serial killer is often wrong.

[Septic Blue]

The workhouses were awful but it should be noted that by 1888 the workhouses had changed a lot from the 1834 guidelines. Scandals such as the Andover Scandal made people very aware of the issues of the workhouses and riots in the north of England in places like Bradford were enough to scare the governement in to making chnages to the Poor Laws so as to avoid revolution. The idea of the Principle of Less Eligibility was the corner stone of the Poor Law but was also the thing which people were quickest to protest about.
The Workhouse often adapted to suit the economic climate of the local area. It is interesting to note that they list outdoor reliefe poor. This was supposed to have ended, after the 1834 Poor Law act no one was eligable for outdoor relief, and yet here it is. The Casual Wards of many of the city workshouses which had been intended for vagrants were now used in a very different kind of way. It is also important to note that the London Unions were unlike any other Poor Law Unions due to their immense size.

"… it should be noted that by 1888 the workhouses had changed a lot from the 1834 guidelines."

That Poor Law Parishes/Unions were functioning with a certain degree of autonomy, in the latter portion of the nineteenth century; and that in most instances, adherence to the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834, was not as strict as was the case, in earlier decades; … would seem to be widely accepted.

But here, …

And further, Harkness says...

...

The Whitechapel Union is a model workhouse; that is to say it is the Poor Law Incarnate in stone and brickwork. ... The young people never go out, never see a visitor, and the old only get one holiday in the month. Then the aged paupers may be seen skipping like lambkins outside the doors of the Bastille, while they jabber to their friends and relatives.

… we have a very specific reference, to what would appear to be a particularly rigid adherence to the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834, - as well as the Poor Law Commission Consolidated General Order 1847, and its applicable guidelines for the administration of 'Poor Relief' facilities (i.e. workhouses, infirmaries, and casual wards).

Even in light of the fact that this reference comes from a novelist, whose socialist inclinations might have compelled her to exaggerate the horrors of workhouse life; it would appear that the Board of Guardians of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union ran a 'tight ship', in 1888.

Again; …

… it would appear that the Board of Guardians of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union ran a 'tight ship', in 1888.

I have already conceded that Robert Mann, as a nearly 'womb-to-tomb' ward - and perhaps long-term faithful servant - of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union, might have been granted some sort of 'passage', with which he was able to occasionally come-and-go from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary. But the notion that he would have been granted such 'passage' between the hours of midnight and 6:00AM is utterly preposterous. That is as far as I am willing to bend.

Until Mr. Trow can sufficiently address this issue, with specific references to the manner, in which confinement was administered in the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, in 1888; Robert Mann's supposed 'candidacy' will remain an outright impossibility!

.........