mann

[Trevor Marriott]

A feeble suggestion by Trow suggesting Mann was suffering from TB in 1889 hence the mild attack on Mckenzie. If he had Tb in 1889 he would have died long before 1896

Trow himself does not put a motive forward simply allows the professor to do that which could be right or on the other hand horribly wrong.

Likewise he does not put froward an explanation for the "removal of the organs"

The programmes showed Mann being able to write in a reasonable fashion and being out drinking. The man was a pauper probabaly didnt have a pot to piss in let alone going out on the town drinking and not being in a position to show money to prostitutes to get them to go to dark secluded spots.

Many major and important issues not covered or deliberatly left out

i said in a previous post as far as the documentary is concerned i dont blame Trow obviously he isnt going to turn down a financial offer but the blame must be with the Discover channel and whoever commisioned it there. They obvioulsy didnt research the Ripper mystery very well.

[Doppelganger]

He kill more then the 5 known women you don`t go from 0 to the type of murder his first was you work your way up to it now they may not have been Tabram & Mackenzie but there are other victims.

[Trevor Marriott]

Would you care to expand on who you beleive were the "other" victims ?

[Chris]

He wasnt an occupant of the workhouse in the sense that he was an inmate, his job as a morturay attendent meant he was part of the workhouse staff.

This is just plain wrong. You have only to look at the reports of the inquest:
Robert Mann, the keeper of the mortuary, said the police came to the workhouse, of which he was an inmate.

http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_nichols.html

Mann's status as a long term inmate of the workhouse is well documented. As such, he would not have been able to leave the workhouse without permission. Judging from some of the posts here, this difficulty was not even mentioned in the documentary. If that is correct, it is absolutely amazing.

[dixon9]

it was not mentioned chris,in fact it gave the impressiong RM could just go out an about whenever he wanted(show him in the pub alot)lol

[Jangling Jack]

Also the Lusk letter being attributed to Mann..and yet there was also a segment that showed a possible signature of Mann on a mortuary report of some sort and the writing was completely different i.e. a hell of a lot more neat than the blots of the Lusk letter.

[Septic Blue]

He wasnt an occupant of the workhouse in the sense that he was an inmate, his job as a morturay attendent meant he was part of the workhouse staff. Hence he was free to come and go as he pleased, ...

Male labourers that laboured outside the workhouse were free to come and go, ...

Initially, he was "free to come and go" because he was "part of the workhouse staff".

Now, he was "free to come and go" because of his (self-proclaimed) status as a "labourer", in the eyes of various census enumerators.

Which was it?

Again, …

Male labourers that laboured outside the workhouse were free to come and go, ...

Perhaps you would care to name the source, from which you gathered this misinformation!

Dock workers who were work house residents for example did not have to be in bed by 9m, most jobs in the eastend of london especially for the poor took place well into the night and started very early in the morning.

This is eerily reminiscent of the attempts of a certain poster to con us all into believing that the Victoria Home for Working Men, Commercial Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, kept its doors open throughout the night.

Perhaps you do not know the difference between a charitable institution (i.e. the Victoria Home) and a regulated Poor Law facility (i.e. the Whitechapel Union Infirmary), for which the local rate-payers were forced to bear the burden.

Using his residency of a work house is a poor reason to discount him as a suspect.

It is the very reason that he should be seen as being an outright non-starter!

Mann's status as a long term inmate of the workhouse is well documented. As such, he would not have been able to leave the workhouse without permission. Judging from some of the posts here, this difficulty was not even mentioned in the documentary. If that is correct, it is absolutely amazing.

"Judging from some of the posts here, this difficulty was not even mentioned in the documentary. If that is correct, it is absolutely amazing."

Amazing, and indeed pathetic!

[Ben]

Some hysterical nitwit who peppers every post he makes with too many pretty colours and exclamation marks makes the following insulting accusation:

This is eerily reminiscent of the attempts of a certain poster to con us all into believing that the Victoria Home for Working Men, Commercial Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, kept its doors open throughout the night.

From the Daily Telegraph, 21 September 1888:

Tickets for beds are issued from five p.m. until 12.30 midnight, and after that hour if a man wants to get in he must have a pass.

It would seem, therefore, that access to the Victoria Home was available to lodgers in possession of a pass at any time after 12:30.

But back to Robert Mann...

[Septic Blue]

... makes the following insulting accusation:

As it was intended to be!

[Ben]

So you "intended" to insult me unprovoked on a thread in which I wasn't participating?

I really don't know who raises some people round here...

[scarletpimpernel]

From the Daily Telegraph, 21 September 1888:

Tickets for beds are issued from five p.m. until 12.30 midnight, and after that hour if a man wants to get in he must have a pass.

It would seem, therefore, that access to the Victoria Home was available to lodgers in possession of a pass at any time after 12:30.

But back to Robert Mann...[/QUOTE]

Hi Ben,

Thank you for that useful information.

In the programme, Mann's place of work at the mortuary and where he lived were two separate places but very close to each other. Another interesting thing, is that all the killings were between 3 to 5 minutes walk from those two places too. Here we have a suspect who was brought up in that area, so he knew it like the palm of his hand worked and lived all his life in the vecinity of his killing ground. To me, at least, It would explain quite neatly that this is why he has gone undetected; he had two hiding places and it wouldn't have been suspicious to see him with blood here or there, since that was his line of work. Also, working as an assistant mortician, he is in the perfect place to pickle a kidney, all the bottles are right there, at his finger tips. Another interesting bit is that all the victims ended up in that particular mortuary, for someone who has that type of fetichism, he knows that he will have another chance to touch again what he did in the street.

[Radical Joe]

B*ll*x!

All the posts I made on this topic, asking others to watch the show and listen to the arguments before casting judgement - and I went out and forgot to record it! Ah well, perhaps it'll turn up on youtube.

I understand Trow never pointed out how Mann had freedom of movement during the period, which is surely vital given his workhouse status. Dissapointed if so.

And, did he address the fact that Mann was older than any witness statements suggest? Again, important given how he previously argued that other suspects of a similar age should be discounted on the same grounds.

[dixon9]

Joe,its on again Wednesday at 10pm (discovery channel 520sky)

[Doppelganger]

Would you care to expand on who you beleive were the "other" victims ?

Serial killers don`t go from 0 to 60 at the drop of the hat he would have started off assaulting women & worked his way up to murder and his first murder would have been without mutilations that is the pattern of most serial killers.

[miss marple]

workhouse

The workhouse connection puts him completely of the frame. To spell it out again.
The only people admitted to workhouses, apart from the old and sick, were paupers. People with no money, no income, and no work. Although in 1881 census Mann was described as a dock labourer, pauper, all that means is that some time in the past he had been a casual labourer at the docks, but had not worked for a while.
Once in the workhouse, EVERY INMATE HAD TO WORK, unless they were seriously ill. They were given all kinds of jobs from picking oakam, breaking stones, cleaning,working in the kitchens, laundry or mortuary attendant. Mann was NOT a member of staff because he worked in the mortuary. It was an unpleasent job, probably given to Mann, because he had been in workhouses a long time,was a bit simple, and undisturbed by the atmosphere.
The inmates wore uniform.they were sent to the workhouse for fixed periods sometimes years.The men and women were in seperate dormatories, lights out, locked in at night.
Families were seperated, childen seperated from parents, given a basic education, that did not include literacy. The food was gruel, broth a bit cheese. The rules were harsh, the existence monontonous.Things had not changed much from the days of Dicken's Oliver Twist
Ending in the workhouse was the dread of every working class person, they were feared.
They designed to punish the poor, the thinking being if they were bad enough, the poor would avoid falling into pauperism.
The idea that a workhouse pauper is hanging out in pubs picking up prostitutes is up there with some of the wilder JR theories.
Miss Marple