mann

[Trevor Marriott]

The only possible connection could be that as the mortuary keeper he permitted/allowed A.N OTHER to remove the organs freely or for reward or gain. In view of the fact Mann was a pauper I would suggest perhaps the latter.

It has previoulsy been stated that organs were freely available from workhouse mortuaries to bona fide medical persons. Given Mann`s mental capacity and the fact he had worked there for some time he probabaly thought no more about allowing Chapmans organ to be removed than any other organs from any other bodies that were taken to the mortuary and subjected to lawful organ removal.
But i am pleased that it has made readers think that there may be an element of truth behind my theory.

Of course what does concern me with Mr Trow`s suggestion is that if Mann murdered these victims on the street why would he remove the organs from them on the street. After all the time he worked at the mortuary he must have been sick of the sight of organs. He could have had them fried, boiled or casseroled every day!

So who is right and who is wrong, [I]"members of the jury it is for you to deliberate and come to a right and proper verdict"[/I]

Now i stand back tin hat at the ready !!!!

i know of serial killers that after killing victims go back and re visit the body, cant remember to many cases where the body has revisted its killer

[Trevor Marriott]

The only possible connection could be that as the mortuary keeper he permitted/allowed A.N OTHER to remove the organs freely or for reward or gain. In view of the fact Mann was a pauper I would suggest perhaps the latter.

It has previoulsy been stated that organs were freely available from workhouse mortuaries to bona fide medical persons. Given Mann`s mental capacity and the fact he had worked there for some time he probabaly thought no more about allowing Chapmans organ to be removed than any other organs from any other bodies that were taken to the mortuary and subjected to lawful organ removal.
But i am pleased that it has made readers think that there may be an element of truth behind my theory.

Of course what does concern me with Mr Trow`s suggestion is that if Mann murdered these victims on the street why would he remove the organs from them on the street. After all the time he worked at the mortuary he must have been sick of the sight of organs. He could have had them fried, boiled or casseroled every day!

So who is right and who is wrong, "members of the jury it is for you to deliberate and come to a right and proper verdict"

Now i stand back tin hat at the ready !!!!

i know of serial killers that after killing victims go back and re visit the body, cant remember to many cases where the body has revisted the killer

[Sam Flynn]

i know of serial killers that after killing victims go back and re visit the body, cant remember to many cases where the body has revisted the killer

A classic! Thanks, Trevor

[Trevor Marriott]

i reposted the post just for that, thought everyone had missed it

[Septic Blue]

Chronology:

~1835/1836:

Birth of Robert Mann

- Presumably in the Hamlet of Mile End New Town, Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney (Detached), County of Middlesex

- Possibly in the Parish Workhouse of Christ Church Spitalfields, Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town

1837:

Establishment of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union, in accordance with the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834

- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney (Detached)
--- [The Hamlet of Mile End New Town]
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories')
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (portion within the County of Middlesex)
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- [The Liberty of the Tower]
--- [The Precinct of Old Tower Without]
--- [The Tower]
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (portion within the County of Middlesex)

Conversion of the Parish Workhouse of St. Mary Whitechapel, Whitechapel Road, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, to 'Whitechapel Union Workhouse'

Conversion of the Parish Workhouse of Christ Church Spitalfields, Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, also to 'Whitechapel Union Workhouse'

1841:

Census of England & Wales

Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: St. Mary Whitechapel
Registration Sub-District: Whitechapel North
Enumeration District: "Whitechapel Union Workhouse - Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel"

Robert Mann was not listed as having been resident. *

* I have scrolled through the enumerations once; but will do so again, in order to be sure that Mann was not listed. The enumerated residents were almost exclusively female.

Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: St. Dunstan Stepney (Detached)
Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
Enumeration District: "Whitechapel Union Workhouse - Hamlet of Mile End New Town"

Robert Mann was not listed as having been resident. *

* I have scrolled through the enumerations once; but will do so again, in order to be sure that Mann was not listed. The enumerated residents were almost exclusively male.

~1842:

Closure of both Whitechapel Union Workhouse facilities

Construction of new Whitechapel Union Workhouse, on the site of the former Mile End New Town facility

1851:

Census of England & Wales

Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: St. Dunstan Stepney (Detached)
Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
Enumeration District: "Christchurch (sic) Workhouse, Charles Street, Mile End New Town", i.e. Whitechapel Union Workhouse, Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Page: 5

"Robert Mann"
"Pauper"
"15"
"n.k.", i.e. not known (?)

1861:

Census of England & Wales

Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: St. Dunstan Stepney (Detached)
Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
Enumeration District: "Union Workhouse", i.e. Whitechapel Union Workhouse, Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Page: 17

"Mann, Robert"
"Inmate"
"25"
"Labourer"
"Middlesex, M E N Town", i.e. Hamlet of Mile End New Town, Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney (Detached), County of Middlesex

1871:

Census of England & Wales

Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: "St. Dunstan Stepney (Detached)", i.e. Hamlet of Mile End New Town *
Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
Enumeration District: "Whitechapel Union Workhouse", i.e. Whitechapel Union Workhouse, Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Page: 12

"Mann, Robert"
"Inmate"
"36"
"Labourer"
"Middx Stepney", i.e. Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney, County of Middlesex (Presumably in the Hamlet of Mile End New Town)

* From ~1329, the Ancient Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney was gradually diminished, as each of its constituent hamlets became itself, a Civil Parish. In 1867, its three remaining hamlets (Mile End New Town, Mile End Old Town and Ratcliff) were themselves granted such status: That of 'Civil Parish'.

1872:

Conversion of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, to 'Whitechapel Union Infirmary'

Construction of new Whitechapel Union Workhouse, South Grove, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town

Mid-to-Late 1870's:

Renaming of Charles Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, to 'Baker's Row'

1881:

Census of England & Wales

Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
Enumeration District: "Infirmary of the Whitechapel Union", i.e. Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Page: 18

"Robert Mann"
"Pauper"
"46"
"Dock Labourer"
"Middlx Mile End New Town", i.e. Hamlet of Mile End New Town, Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney (Detached), County of Middlesex

The fact that Robert Mann is listed as a resident "Pauper" of the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, rather than the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, may be indicative of an ongoing fulfillment of an infirmary-based responsibility, such as 'Mortuary Attendant'.


1891:

Census of England & Wales

Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
Enumeration District: "Baker's Row Infirmary (Whitechapel Union)", i.e. Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Page: 8

"Robert Mann"
"Pauper Inmate"
"56"
"General Laborer"
"London, M E N Town", i.e. Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of London

Again; the fact that Robert Mann is listed as a resident "Pauper" of the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, rather than the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, may be indicative of an ongoing fulfillment of an infirmary-based responsibility, such as 'Mortuary Attendant'.


Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary / Casual Ward, Baker's Row / Thomas Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town / Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009


Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town (Click to View in flickr)


Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary / Casual Ward, Baker's Row / Thomas Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town / Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Click to View in flickr)


Site of Whitechapel Union Casual Ward, Thomas Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Click to View in flickr)


Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary, Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009


Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary, Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town (Click to View in flickr)

There have been several references to the use of 'geographic profiling' in the development of Trow's 'Robert Mann' theory.

I am still in the process of completing an informal presentation of my "Geo-Spatial Analysis Project", which is intended for the establishment of certain parameters that should serve to define our use of the term 'local', in the context of the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper'.

"Informal Presentation of Geo-Spatial Analysis Project"


Figure 1: Cumulative Probability Distribution (0.00 - 1.00 Standard Deviations) (Circular) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 63.68% would have occurred within the red color-shaded circle, i.e. within one 'Standard Deviation' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the red color-shaded circle, should have been 63.68%.


Figure 2: Cumulative Probability Distribution (0.00 - 3.00 Standard Deviations) (Circular) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 97.00% would have occurred within the red/orange/yellow color-shaded circle, i.e. within three 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the red/orange/yellow color-shaded circle, should have been 97.00%.

*** I have included within the overall project, an example of a very simple 'geographic profile' model. It is based on the premise that at some level of deviation from the murder-site mean-center, there exists a '50.00%-threshold'; such that the probability of a perpetrator having operated from within the corresponding area (circle or ellipse), is equal to 50.00% of the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the same area. Using one 'Standard Deviation' as the '50.00%-threshold'; the 'geographic profile' probability distribution (i.e. the former) steadily declines from 50.00% of the 'subsequent murder expectation' probability distribution (i.e. the latter), within one standard deviation; while the former steadily increases from 50.00% of the latter, beyond one standard deviation. ***


Figure 3: Cumulative Probability Distribution (0.00% - 50.00%) (Circular) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 50.00% would have occurred within the red color-shaded circle, i.e. within 0.73 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the red color-shaded circle, should have been 50.00%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 23.54% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the red color-shaded circle.



Figure 4: Cumulative Probability Distribution (0.00% - 90.00%) (Circular) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 90.00% would have occurred within the red/orange/yellow/green/aqua color-shaded circle, i.e. within 2.02 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the red/orange/yellow/green/aqua color-shaded circle, should have been 90.00%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 58.04% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the red/orange/yellow/green/aqua color-shaded circle.


Figure 5: Cumulative Probability Distribution (Greatest Deviation: Polly Nichols) (Circular) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009


Figure 6: Cumulative Probability Distribution (0.00 - 1.00 Standard Deviations) (Elliptical) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009


Figure 7: Cumulative Probability Distribution (0.00 - 3.00 Standard Deviations) (Elliptical) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009


Figure 8: Cumulative Probability Distribution (0.00% - 50.00%) (Elliptical) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009


Figure 9: Cumulative Probability Distribution (Greatest Deviation: Polly Nichols) (Elliptical) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009


Figure 10: Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center (Elliptical Perspective): Aaron Kosminski; Robert Mann (Mortuary); Robert Mann (Union Infirmary) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Red Dot (Yellow Ellipse): Possible 1888 Residence of Aaron Kosminski

34 Yalford Street, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 56.79" West
Latitude: 51° 30' 59.31" North

Yellow Ellipse: 0.67 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 46.76% would have occurred within the yellow ellipse, i.e. within 0.67 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the yellow ellipse, should have been 46.76%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 21.76% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the yellow ellipse. Thus suggesting that there was merely a 22% 'likelihood' that 'Jack the Ripper' resided within less 'elliptical deviation' from the murder-site mean-center, than did Aaron Kosminski.

Red Dot (Smaller Green Ellipse): Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary

Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 52.22" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 8.12" North

Smaller Green Ellipse: 0.73 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 50.00% would have occurred within the smaller green ellipse, i.e. within 0.73 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the smaller green ellipse, should have been 50.00%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 23.54% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the smaller green ellipse. Thus suggesting that there was merely a 24% 'likelihood' that 'Jack the Ripper' operated from within less 'elliptical deviation' from the murder-site mean-center, than would Robert Mann have done, from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary.

Red Dot (Larger Green Ellipse): Whitechapel Union Infirmary

Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 50.14" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 14.66" North

Larger Green Ellipse: 0.94 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 60.88% would have occurred within the larger green ellipse, i.e. within 0.94 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the larger green ellipse, should have been 60.88%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 30.00% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the larger green ellipse. Thus suggesting that there was merely a 30% 'likelihood' that 'Jack the Ripper' operated from within less 'elliptical deviation' from the murder-site mean-center, than would Robert Mann have done, from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary.

Red Ellipse: 1.00 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

(63.68% / 31.84%)

If Trow has in fact, used some sort of 'geographic profile' to bolster his case against Robert Mann – not that any rational case can possibly be made against a man who was in all likelihood, held strictly accountable for his whereabouts, by the Guardians of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union – then it presumably accounts for the Alice McKenzie murder-site, which would shift the murder-site mean-center 41.50 yards to the southwest, i.e. away from both the mortuary and infirmary.

In any case; it is highly doubtful that any 'geographic profile' will suggest that Robert Mann was anything more than a 'viable' candidate.

[lynn cates]

yeoman service

Hello Septic. Thanks for all the time and hard work here! You've done yeoman service.

And it is work like this and other like it (eg, unearthing letters in musty old libraries) that MAY eventually solve the case. It is more fruitful than the mere speculation that so many of us indulge in.

I am reminded of a line in the Manson movie, "Helter Skelter." It ran:

"This is not the way you solve cases. You solve them by filling out forms in triplicate." Much wisdom to that.

Keep up the good work!

Cheers.
LC

[Versa]

He wasnt an occupant of the workhouse in the sense that he was an inmate, his job as a morturay attendent meant he was part of the workhouse staff. Hence he was free to come and go as he pleased, as for his age, does anyone seriously think the very public killing spree of 1888 was JtR's begining? It seems more like a frenzied end to a long build up of attacks and murders to me.

he could of been active for many years before at a far lesser degree, there are many reasons that he might of become more public and less carefull in his killings. He may of been getting older and he may also of been physically sick, knowing he was unwell he may of thrown caution to the wind...

[Septic Blue]

He wasnt an occupant of the workhouse in the sense that he was an inmate, his job as a morturay attendent meant he was part of the workhouse staff. Hence he was free to come and go as he pleased, ...

Nonsense!

[Versa]

Nonsense!

ummmm not at all but thanks for a very informative answer

[Versa]

Chronology:


The fact that Robert Mann is listed as a resident "Pauper" of the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, rather than the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, may be indicative of an ongoing fulfillment of an infirmary-based responsibility, such as 'Mortuary Attendant'.


1891:

Census of England & Wales

Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
Enumeration District: "Baker's Row Infirmary (Whitechapel Union)", i.e. Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Page: 8

"Robert Mann"
"Pauper Inmate"
"56"
"General Laborer"
"London, M E N Town", i.e. Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of London

Again; the fact that Robert Mann is listed as a resident "Pauper" of the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, rather than the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, may be indicative of an ongoing fulfillment of an infirmary-based responsibility, such as 'Mortuary Attendant'.

Male labourers that laboured outside the workhouse were free to come and go, using his listing as a workhouse resident is a poor reason for discounting him as a suspect. Dock workers who were work house residents for example did not have to be in bed by 9m, most jobs in the eastend of london especially for the poor took place well into the night and started very early in the morning. Using his residency of a work house is a poor reason to discount him as a suspect.

[The Grave Maurice]

Hello Versa,

Don't take SB's comments too seriously. Lately, he's become very intense. Pressures of work, no doubt. Anyway, nice to have you with us. (I like your profile picture.)

[Versa]

:-) hi thanks for the welome :-) i joined ages ago but felt a bit overwhelmed and ran away lol

[scarletpimpernel]

He wasnt an occupant of the workhouse in the sense that he was an inmate, his job as a morturay attendent meant he was part of the workhouse staff. Hence he was free to come and go as he pleased, as for his age, does anyone seriously think the very public killing spree of 1888 was JtR's begining? It seems more like a frenzied end to a long build up of attacks and murders to me.

he could of been active for many years before at a far lesser degree, there are many reasons that he might of become more public and less carefull in his killings. He may of been getting older and he may also of been physically sick, knowing he was unwell he may of thrown caution to the wind...

Versa,

Interestingly, that is exactly what Meir Trow is saying and offers as the ripper's first victim Martha Tabran and his last victim Alice Mackenzie ends up in his slab as well, he explains that as the wounds are not as horrific as the previous ones he is saying that this is because by that time, Robert Mann was seriously ill with tuberculosis, a debilitating illness which affects the nervous system, the bones, difficulty in breathing etc and he simply didn't have the energy nor the time to finish her off with the mutilations of the previous victims.

[scarletpimpernel]

....but having just listened to Trevor Marriotts podcast, does anyone think there is a connection between his organ removal idea and Mei's naming of Mann?

Monty

Hi Monty:

According to the programme last night, a mortuary assistant had the means to preserve a kidney in a certain condition and all he needed was right there, at his fingertips at his place of work.

A mortuary assistant standing behind a doctor's shoulder might have had the experience in cutting organs too. The mortuary, was separate from where he lived but both places were very close by as was the radious of where all the victims were killed, ending in his particular morgue slab. Interesting !

[dixon9]

If Robert Mann had 'special previleges' being able to come and go as he pleased(which tbh i doubt) would he also have been free to wear his own clothes and not the workhouse uniforms,which would surely dont tally up to eye witness accounts of what 'jack' was wearing.Also the age is a big negative in the RM theory.
I just cant have him as a legitimate suspect,but must say i enjoyed the prog.

dixon9
still learning