mann

[claire]

'idiocy could not have supplied two more incapable men'...marvellous.

excellent stuff, Fisherman...do you have a date for that?

As to the question earlier regarding why so many people here are happy to quickly dismiss theories...that's not fair. The fact is that when a theory contains so many obvious and provable errors (suspect in France at the time; in bed at a workhouse; on a boat off the coast of Djibouti; dead), then why spend time discussing it?

[Radical Joe]

I found it interesting from the outset, Joe - not least because I know that there is sometimes a connection inbetween serial killers and a wish to work at places like morgues and such. It is a simple thing to understand.

When Mann is pinpointed as a 52 year old inmate, though, I think we are dealing with something a lot less interesting. I am not ruling him out as such, but I have seen far too many a pound made on wild speculations that had better never been raised to become anything but a cynic, I´m afraid. And Mann´s candidacy seems to do very little to change that wiew so far.

I have, however, tried to order the book, but it seems it is already sold out, and so I shall have to wait and see. The optimist in me tells me it´s him for sure - but the cynic usually wins the bout...

The best,
Fisherman

Hi,

Yep, I can appreciate the cynical aspect that comes with the subject. I tend to wonder in and out of 'Ripperology'. I usually read a couple of books (or watch a couple of documentaries) then think 'what a load of nonsense...I've had enough of this' and leave the subject alone for a few years. Right now, I'm in my 'well, let's give em a chance' phase which, going on previous experience, should last for another six months - or one book/documentary, whichever comes first.

I agree that his age and supposed workhouse status is something of a barrier here but, as I've said, I'll wait until sunday to see how he counters these (and other) objections.

[Radical Joe]

'idiocy could not have supplied two more incapable men'...marvellous.

excellent stuff, Fisherman...do you have a date for that?

As to the question earlier regarding why so many people here are happy to quickly dismiss theories...that's not fair. The fact is that when a theory contains so many obvious and provable errors (suspect in France at the time; in bed at a workhouse; on a boat off the coast of Djibouti; dead), then why spend time discussing it?

Hi, I assume that's adressed to me.

The point I was making was that the theory was being dismissed before it had even been put forward in context. Who's to say that Trow won't be able to provide evidence which shows that Mann was able to wander the streets at night? Certainly he needs to, to counter the argument that he was confined to the workhouse and/or strictly supervised.

Perhas he can't, in which case his argument falls apart. All I'm saying is give the Mann a chance.

[claire]

...sorry, was replying too quickly on a slow browser, so didn't mean to be rude

Anyhow, the other reason is that, the sooner people can dismiss new theories, the sooner they can get back to nursing their own pet ideas...! Heheh.

[Radical Joe]

...sorry, was replying too quickly on a slow browser, so didn't mean to be rude

Anyhow, the other reason is that, the sooner people can dismiss new theories, the sooner they can get back to nursing their own pet ideas...! Heheh.

No probs, you didn't come across as rude anyway - I've seen much worse on here when trawling through various threads. Who would've thought a seemingly mundane question about George Hutchinson's signature could descend into out and out abuse?! And let's not even talk about the Maybrick threads.

Also, I think your other reason has more going for it than a lot of folk on here would like to admit.

*Controversial*

[claire]

couldn't possibly comment

Yup, Trow's going to need to pull a few sure-fire rabbits from the hat. And if he had them, my bet is he would have made sure the papers got a look at them. Then again, they probably figured he was a genius for suggesting it was most likely a working class local, so didn't probe.

[Chris]

Yup, Trow's going to need to pull a few sure-fire rabbits from the hat.

Indeed. Another problem for the theory is that even if Mann had managed somehow to escape from the workhouse during the night, his workhouse uniform would have made him very conspicuous, and presumably liable to be arrested by any policeman who saw him. And of course none of the witnesses describes anyone resembling "an old man in workhouse uniform" near any of the murder sites.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18880918.html

[Trevor Marriott]

If he was wandering the streets he would have been in company with hundreds of others all doing the same.

In some workhouse some residents were allowed to come and go freely

I can now see other people will be coming out of the woodwork all trying to put forward names of someone in the specified catergories i.e butcher,slaughterman, doctor, student, just because they vaguely match the FBI profile and either live or work in the Whitechapel area. To me the FBI profile isnt worth the paper its written on.

You cannot totally blame Trew if this all turns out to be a lame duck. You have to blame the Discovery channel for commissiong it. Whoever did that had obviously no knowlege of The Whitechapel murders. But the trouble is the public will view it and will no doubt beleive what they have seen and heard.

[Fisherman]

Claire asks:

"excellent stuff, Fisherman...do you have a date for that?"

That would be September 18, Claire! And Mann was described as "the poor old mortuary keeper" in the East London Advertiser of the 22:nd. He does not come across as the typical Ripper, exactly...

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Radical Joe writes:

"I'll wait until sunday to see how he counters these (and other) objections."

A sound advice indeed, Joe. I´d like to chime in with Claire here and say that I had no intention of bullying you - you are perfectly welcome to your wiew, of course!

The best,
Fisherman

[miss marple]

No need to answer this, about whether Mann was in the workhouse in 1888. Answers have been coming in thick and fast, so we know he was the inmate of two workhouses in the censuses till 1881
.In 1881 he was described as a dock labourer pauper age 46.
He was still in the whitechapel workhouse in 1888 when he is a mortuary attendant at the inquest of P.N
So he should be in the census of 1891 age 56,
He died in 1896 age 60 in whitechapel. The death cert would b useful.
i would think at some point he would have been one of the 'casuals' who waited in the mornings to get a day's work at the docks. These casuals were often unemployed, they had none of the advantages of the permenant dock labourers.If he had worked in the docks when younger, he must have been fairly strong
Can someone look him up in 1891 census? I've had no luck on freecen, which never comes up with anything.

Miss Maple

[Radical Joe]

Radical Joe writes:

"I'll wait until sunday to see how he counters these (and other) objections."

A sound advice indeed, Joe. I´d like to chime in with Claire here and say that I had no intention of bullying you - you are perfectly welcome to your wiew, of course!

The best,
Fisherman

That's fine, as with Clare, I never had the idea that you were bullying me anyway! I'm up for a good debate about relevant issues, and even a bit of banter as a side dish. Disagreements are par for the course on here, and I wouldn't want it any other way. It's only when it gets personal and nasty that I don't like.

And, touch wood, I haven't encountered any nasty remarks yet.

[Septic Blue]

... his workhouse uniform would have made him very conspicuous, and presumably liable to be arrested by any policeman who saw him.

…

http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18880918.html

"Robert Manns (an old man in workhouse uniform) said he was keeper of the Whitechapel mortuary. He received the body in the morning and left it in the mortuary. After having breakfast he returned and, with the assistance of a man named Hatfield, he undressed the body.

The Coroner - Oh, yes, and the inspector was present while this was done, was he not?

Witness - No; we two were alone.

The Coroner (in astonishment) - Surely you make a mistake. Think again.

The witness adhered to his statement, and after some further examination, the coroner remarked that Manns' evidence was quite unreliable. He was subject to fits, and apparently his memory was impaired. (It will be remembered that on a previous occasion that Inspector Helston deposed to being present while the body was being stripped).

James Hatfield, another old man, also in the workhouse uniform, said he assisted Manns to strip the body, and he described how this was done. They cut some of the clothes and tore others, to get them off. He and Manns were quite alone. The deceased did not have any stays on.

A juryman (indignantly) - Why when we in the yard you showed me the stays. You even put them on to show me how small they were. (Laughter.)

The witness said he had no recollection of such a thing, and the Coroner remarked that it was useless to examine this witness further, as he, too, evidently had an impaired memory."

And of course none of the witnesses describes anyone resembling "an old man in workhouse uniform" near any of the murder sites.

Perhaps Mann was dressed in Nichols's clothing – which ironically included a portion of the uniform worn by inmates of the Parish Workhouse of St. Mary Lambeth (Princes Road) – when he encountered Chapman; and likewise dressed in Chapman's clothing on the night of the so-called 'Double Event'; etc …

[Septic Blue]

Mann appears to have lived most of his life in the facility that was the Whitechapel Union Workhouse from ~1842 to 1872, and the Whitechapel Union Infirmary thereafter. He is listed as either a resident 'inmate' or 'pauper' in each of the census-years 1851, 1871 and 1881.

So he should be in the census of 1891 age 56,

He is!

I didn't scroll through the pages of the enumeration district "Baker's Row Infirmary (Whitechapel Union)", during my initial search: I simply 'searched' his name/birth-year/residence. It must have been incorrectly transcribed by ancestry.co.uk.

1891
- Registration District: Whitechapel
- Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
- Enumeration District: "Baker's Row Infirmary (Whitechapel Union)", i.e. Whitechapel Union Infirmary
- Page 8
- "Robert Mann"
- "Pauper Inmate"
- "56"
- "General Laborer"
- "London, M E N Town"

Judging from the four references to place of birth, …

- 1851: "n.k." (not known?)
- 1871: "Middx Stepney"
- 1881: "Middlx Mile End New Town"
- 1891: "London, M E N Town"

… I would venture to guess that Mann was actually born in the Parish Workhouse of Christ Church Spitalfields, which was replaced (on site) by the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, in ~1842.

[Septic Blue]

1861
- Registration District: Whitechapel
- Civil Parish: St. Dunstan Stepney
- Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
- Enumeration District: "Union Workhouse", i.e. Whitechapel Union Workhouse
- Page 17
- "Mann, Robert"
- "Inmate"
- "25"
- "Labourer"
- "Middlesex, M E N Town"

I believe that Robert Mann lived his entire life in the same Poor Law Facility; …

- Parish Workhouse of Christ Church Spitalfields ( -~1842)
- Whitechapel Union Workhouse (~1842-1872)
- Whitechapel Union Infirmary (1872- )

… Charles Street / Baker's Row / Vallance Road, Hamlet of Mile End New Town.