Did Jack the Ripper even exist?

[Howard Brown]

Bob:

I would think pimps did wait for their cash cows to come home to divvy up their earnings...but in the case of the WM victims, I seriously doubt any of these women were being pimped..although Kelly, if any,could have been. By now, someone would have probably found it mentioned somewhere that one or more did get pimped back in the day and someone would have found it referenced. Ze hunt goes on...

I think,cannot prove, that those who were pimped were younger ( 17-30) with few of 'em if any at the 40 year mark. Tabram rested on the cusp of 40 and N/C/S/E are all over fortysomethings.

Sammy....thanks for taking the opporpoonity to follow up that incorrigible Linford with that joke. T'was a good one.

[Cap'n Jack]

Like I said, Ally, you are looking at the stats for the entire Metropolitan area whilst I am using the stats for Whitechapel only. These show that the murders attributed to whom you call 'Jack the Ripper', a serial killer, had no influence whatsoever on the numbers of murders committed in Whitchapel in 1888 as the murder rate remained stationary for a three year period.
One would in a small community expect to see an increase in the rate of murder should a serial killer suddenly appear on the scene, as in my own island community when the 'Beast of Jersey' suddenly appeared on the scene, rapidly increasing the statistics for kidnap and rape for the time period he was operating.
I think you will find that the murder statistics for a small town in Norfolk over the last few years will certainly reflect the fact that a serial killer was on the rampage there.

[Sam Flynn]

No jokes about a wages snatch, please.

... better that, than a cervix charge.

[Robert]

Hi How

Well, I'm assuming that pimps don't follow their women 24 hours a day - what happens if they run several? - and I imagine that they will sometimes just expect a certain sum each week, with the threat of violence if it's not paid. I suppose if the pimp is short of cash, or the woman has a drink habit etc, which would absorb her earnings, he might follow her round to make sure of collecting the money after each transaction.

No jokes about a wages snatch, please.

[Howard Brown]

You beat everyone to it,Janie...good going.

The comments made so far about the old 'cash box" reminds me of the old song D'Onston was fond of singing and strummin' on the ukelele when he and Collins got hammered on chloral and brandy....you remember,don't ya? Its got a money and moneymaker connection too....the age old classic..

"Off the Table Mabel,That Shillings For Soup !"

[Jane Coram]

Hi Dark Passenger,

Only a small point, but probably one that someone ought to make....
When a prostitute talks about stashing money in her 'money box' she's not talking about the uterus, but her vagina, as the uterus isn't generally accessible from the outside, and without being vulgar, if anything went in, it wouldn't be coming out again in a hurry!

I just thought I'd better clear that up because it wouldn't really be a good reason for Jack to extract the uteri, although I suppose it would be one way to access the vagina if he was looking for stashed money there, just a bit unlikely I think.

Jane

xxxxx

[Howard Brown]

Bob:

A thought occurs to me...

Despite the murder of Tabram ( news and undoubtedly exaggerated news at that,had to spread throughout the community..."Did you know the killer stabbed Martha 500 times?"..."Did you hear that Martha had her eyes poked out?") and the subsequent murder of Polly Nichols which then created the Leather Apron scare...women were still on the streets. I recall the comments found in the Sept.4th,1888 edition of The Star where 50 streetwalkers gave their views on the murders that had transpired to one of the paper's reporters...and this,of course,was 4 days before Chapman was killed.

Now, if these women: Smith,Tabram and Nichols.. did have pimps,which I don't believe you are arguing for,since there's no evidence that they did, one would think if the subsequent victims did have them, they were failures.

The amount of time between Nichols and Chapman's murders,along with the fact they were murdered outdoors and were mutilated, might have had an effect on how prostitutes plied their trade if they were being pimped...but the WM victims after Nichols...C/E and possibly Kelly, weren't...A pimped prostitute would probably have ensured his cash cow's safety to some degree whereas an unpimped pross was on her own.



Its a funny thing or a rather sad thing in that had they had pimps,perhaps they would not have been murdered...and of course,some others probably would have been.

[Robert]

I would have thought the murders would have the effect of making the women less willing to go out working, and more choosy about who they went with. I don't see how the pimps would benefit from that. Plus, there are logistical problems. For instance, did Eddowes's pimp hang around outside BPS, waiting for several hours until he could get his hands on her? Or did he by sheer coincidence bump into her at 1.35 AM in an area that she probably didn't often go to?

Quick comment or two:

Older American males...even women...may remember the old phrase, "Back In A Flash With The Cash In The Gash". That,of course,refers to prostitutes and the place they stashed their money from a trick.

Second and final....compare the murders from the years preceding 1888...going back to 1869 as Simon Wood kindly provided....with the WM.

The WM crimes occurred after Bloody Sunday in 1887 when tensions between the people and police were at their highest...not to mention the newspapers flexing their collective muscle. They were also extremely violent murders. Do any of the pre-1888 murders involve sticks in vaginal areas( Smith in April)...39 stabs in a hallway ( Tabram in August)...or mutilations to the degree N/C/ and E suffered....not to forget the November 9th Massacre?

Hi Howard,

I heartily agree with the subtext there....it would be foolish to ignore the intense emotions present in those neighborhoods when assessing these crimes. Political or Philosophical issues are one thing, but police killed some protesters on Bloody Sunday, I read that it was estimated as many as 1,000,000 lined the route of the funeral of one female beating victim. One beating victim a few years later shoots a gun off outside the parliament buildings..still an active socialist. It was this event that divided some senior opinion as to the nature of the threat of this ever growing mass of unemployed immigrants in the area. A rabble or an army?

Inside the force and from outside the authorities had serious problems ongoing when it came to them investigating these crimes at street level.

Cheers Howard, my best to you.

[Howard Brown]

Quick comment or two:

Older American males...even women...may remember the old phrase, "Back In A Flash With The Cash In The Gash". That,of course,refers to prostitutes and the place they stashed their money from a trick.

Second and final....compare the murders from the years preceding 1888...going back to 1869 as Simon Wood kindly provided....with the WM.

The WM crimes occurred after Bloody Sunday in 1887 when tensions between the people and police were at their highest...not to mention the newspapers flexing their collective muscle. They were also extremely violent murders. Do any of the pre-1888 murders involve sticks in vaginal areas( Smith in April)...39 stabs in a hallway ( Tabram in August)...or mutilations to the degree N/C/ and E suffered....not to forget the November 9th Massacre?

[Ally]

Lord-z,

The problem is though, that's not even what happened. If you read the excerpt provided by simon, you will see it states clearly that the average kill rate for the five years before 1888 was 31. In 1888, there were 36 murders. An increase in the average of exactly five. So Jack did have an affect on the murder rate in 1888, it went up by precisely five. An increase of five may not be statistically significant, but it certainly is numerically significant.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

its a possible theory..... but if it were pimps doing the murders it just would not make sense, because they killed liz and mary, who were 'pretty' and could have made money. this would be like farmers pouring acid on there crops, it would stop the pimps money flow..

---MJK---

[Lord-z]

For I'm suggesting that if a serial killer suddenly starts operating in a very restricted area of London, for which we have the statistics, and kills between five and seven women in a relatively short period of time, then one would expect the statistics to reflect this... they don't.

The thing about statistics is, they swing. How many murders were there in 1886? 1890? In 1888, there just happened to be a few murders less in the east end, which Jack unwittingly balanced out so that they resembled last years numbers. I mean, you are making it sound like the East End had a killing quota.

[Nothing to see]

Not at all. As you'll be aware the commonest way to smuggle drugs and other forbidden articles into prisons is using the method I have described.
And you are misarticulating my meanderings intentionally.
For I'm suggesting that if a serial killer suddenly starts operating in a very restricted area of London, for which we have the statistics, and kills between five and seven women in a relatively short period of time, then one would expect the statistics to reflect this... they don't.
Are you suggesting that other killers of women held off for the duration of the murders in Whitechapel?

It was Jack. Of course it was. No wannabe Jack's, no copy cats. Jack killed 5 women. It was Jack. No-one else. IMO

[Cap'n Jack]

Not at all. As you'll be aware the commonest way to smuggle drugs and other forbidden articles into prisons is using the method I have described.
And you are misarticulating my meanderings intentionally.
For I'm suggesting that if a serial killer suddenly starts operating in a very restricted area of London, for which we have the statistics, and kills between five and seven women in a relatively short period of time, then one would expect the statistics to reflect this... they don't.
Are you suggesting that other killers of women held off for the duration of the murders in Whitechapel?