Name who you think it was,please

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Steve

Will have to disagree strongly with you on this one, my friend.

Apart from a few friends he had in Scotland, from his driving days(where he also used a false name), most of the people who knew him thought of him as a weirdo, especially girls he knew. Even neighbours who were only on nodding terms thought him strange.

I think the piont is usually made that Sutcliffe like Kosminski has been completely harmless since being locked up..most Schizophrenics are..

However today unlike then drugs are used to soften the condition.

Steve I've put some links to some desertations together that might make interesting reading...

I think Rob House has updated some of his ideas sinse this disertation...its quite old now..

MUch though it hurts may to say it...Sams observations on the MO are pritty impressive for a welshman..

I dont by Martin Fido's theories but I think anything he does worth consideration...

Happy researchin'

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-koshouse.html

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-andr.html

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-accident-or-design.html

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/ripperoo-police.html

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-cohen.html

Pirate

[The Good Michael]

Pirate jack,

Several years ago we debated Kosminski as the Batty Street Lodger, and I think it was my idea, but I'd have to go back. I posited that Kosminski may have been too odd to stay with his sister and the kids, but it may have been a good idea to put him up in his own room on Batty street and have the landlord keep an eye on him. The landlord was supposedly German, but she could have been a Yiddish speaker. Anyway, there was absolutely no evidence for this and it was positively just a made up scenario, though not without a bit of thought put into it. Still, it is hardly an arguing point in my opinion.

Cheers,

Mike

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate jack,

Several years ago we debated Kosminski as the Batty Street Lodger, and I think it was my idea, but I'd have to go back. I posited that Kosminski may have been too odd to stay with his sister and the kids, but it may have been a good idea to put him up in his own room on Batty street and have the landlord keep an eye on him. The landlord was supposedly German, but she could have been a Yiddish speaker. Anyway, there was absolutely no evidence for this and it was positively just a made up scenario, though not without a bit of thought put into it. Still, it is hardly an arguing point in my opinion.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike

I havnt seen Rob House around the boards for a while..but I'm sure he makes the case that the Batty Street lodger has been miss-understood.

I dont think he made a case for Kosminski living in Batty Street

I beleive he has suggested a possibility that Kosminski lived in Greenfeild street where the family may have had work shops..

I'm working from memory here but I think that the Batty Street connection was blood stained clothing taken for washing and nothing to do with a lodger.

Yours Pirate

[joelhall]

Yeah? I thought that people regarded him as someone who would do anything for you,help you out with problems you had with your car etc and Sonia was the freaky one??
Steve

to be fair, in the media you only hear these stories. they dont sell papers by telling you the bleeding obvious

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Mike

I cant find Robs post on Batty street but this post refers to it as the 'Bloody laundry incident'

I knew I wasnt going mad anyway

Pirate

RE: ROB HOUSE

Carrotty Nell,

Here is my current thinking on this. IF Aaron comes to the attention of the police after the bloody laundry incident, the police would have questioned him, questioned his relatives. This would have been in the beginning of october, say around October 7. Statements printed in newspaper reports say that "The very place where he lodges is asserted to be within official cognizance." and "The accused is himself aware, it is believed, of the suspicions entertained against him. " Also it is possible that a woman, possibly a relative like his sister, or a sister in law, informed the police about him:

"If the man be the real culprit, he lived some time ago with a woman, by whom he has been accused. Her statements are, it is stated, now being inquired into. In the meantime the suspected assassin is "shadowed."

To me this brings the Earl of Crawford letter into the discussion, as I mentioned.

Then, we have this from the Echo October 20:

"The police complain that their work is increased, and morbid excitement created, by the statements made as to alleged arrests and an important character. "

"There is a clue upon which the authorities have been zealously working for some time. This is in Whitechapel, not far from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy, and the man is, indeed, himself aware that he is being watched; so much so, that, as far as observation has gone at present, he has scarcely ventured out of doors. "

The first statement seems to be saying that the police are complaining that the newspaper reports (such as those I cited) are making it difficult for them to carry out their investigations. In other words, the police would rather the public (and the suspect himself?) were not aware of their observations, and that they were allowed to carry on in secret, as detectives like to do.

Nine days later, we have this interesting article in the Echo, October 29:

"The man who was recently suspected - a resident of Batty-street, near where Lipski lived - has been exonerated. Though certain suspicious circumstances needed explanation, his innocence has been established.

"The theory that the murderer of these unfortunate women is a lunatic is now dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients. Had the criminal been deranged, it is thought as almost certain that fresh crimes would have been perpetuated by him. "If he's insane," observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not."

This is quite interesting. First it says that the man who was recently suspected has been exonerated, and it also says he lived in Batty street. Then it goes on to dispell the theory that the murderer is a lunatic (which presumably Aaron was at this time.)

Now to my mind, if the police is watching a suspect, and an important suspect, then the Echo and other papers get wind of this and start snooping around and printing articles about it... the police are not going to be to happy about this situation as it makes their investigation much more difficult. At this point the Police may have made a statement to the press that the suspect is exonerted... just to get the newspapers off the scent. And would they say, "Oh yes, the suspect lived in Greenfield St"? No they would not. BECAUSE, a) this would alert the suspect himself that "I knew they were watching me", and also b) the police would not want the press and the public to know they were watching a house in Greenfield St. So they say oh yeah, he lived in Batty St. This is also possibly the reason they make the statement about the murderer not being "a lunatic" and that "If he's insane, he's a good deal sharper than those who are not." Police have done similar types of things in other serial killer cases.

Ex- City detective Harry Cox wrote in 1906, "We had many people under observation while the murders were being perpetrated".

My interpretation is as follows:

Aaron comes to the attention of the police in early October, and he is considered a serious suspect. But the police probably were looking at many suspects at this time, and so Kozminski was only one of many "possibles".

He is looked into, watched, etc, but the police have nothing to go on, no real evidence, the suspect rarely goes out of the house etc. The surveillance on him peters out. But Aaron is still a suspect.

I do not think this is the surveillance that Swanson refers to, nor do I think the identification took place at this time.

The same basic logic goes for the woman who informed or "accused" him. This would have been one of many such incidents. As the Echo reports on Oct 10:

VOLUNTEERED INFORMATION
The authorities are greatly harassed by the multitudinous letters pointing to "clues" in this or that locality. Sometimes seventy or eighty written communications and telegrams from all parts of the country arrive at the East-end District Police Office in one day. Certain of the writers have boldly incriminated individuals, and have offered to give full information, with the addendum that they hope to share in the reward

So my basic theory is that the police became aware of Aaron at this time, watched him for a while, but he was only one of many suspects, and that Swanson's identification and the following surveillance DID NOT happen at this time, but happened much later.

Rob H

[Jeff Leahy]

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1308

[Jon Guy]

Yeah? I thought that people regarded him as someone who would do anything for you,help you out with problems you had with your car etc and Sonia was the freaky one??
Steve

Nope ! He liked tinkering with motors and driving people about, usually as an excuse to kill someone when he returned alone. He wasn`t doing it to help people, as such.

[Nicola]

The Peter Sutcliffe story reminds me of something my mother told me about. Before I was born,my mother lived next door to Wayne Williams and his parents for about a year.

She said he was the nicest guy,giving rides to the elderly in the neighborhood and doing chores for them. She was truly shocked when he was arrested,she just couldn't believe that such a nice and quiet man could do something so heinous.
These Mr.Nobody types can be easily overlooked by police and others.

Pirate Jack,I find your post very interesting. I always think that somebody picked up that JTR wasn't quite right and they did say something. But with no evidence,what could be done?

I am no expert on mental illness,but if JTR was schizophrenic and during a time when there was no real treatment for it,wouldn't he have exhibited strange behavior? When they aren't experiencing symptoms,are people with this illness normal acting? If JTR was suffering from it,would he have been able to maintain himself enough to maintain a job and not arouse suspicion? If he had these psychotic delusions that compelled him to kill women,wouldn't they have been everpresent? Not just at night/early morning and on weekends?

[Jon Guy]

I think the piont is usually made that Sutcliffe like Kosminski has been completely harmless since being locked up..most Schizophrenics are..

However today unlike then drugs are used to soften the condition.

Sutcliffe is only harmless now because he can`t sneak up behind girls with a hammer.

[Jeff Leahy]

Sutcliffe is only harmless now because he can`t sneak up behind girls with a hammer.

Precicely my point about Kosminski

[The Good Michael]

Pirate,

I'm sorry, but I don't know what stuff was Rob's and what was yours in that post. I presume it was all Rob's? If so, he does suggest that the lodger was Kosminski, or I'm misreading. Also, he mentions that Kosminski was presumably insane at this time. We now know that he went to court for a dog violation long after the murders, maybe 1 year or so, and was intleeigent enough to argue with the judge, and maybe even used sarcasm. So, though I believe he was insane at the time of the murders, he wasn't far gone enough that he couldn't appear normal and maybe even outhink the police. The latter is specualtion on my part of course.

Also, I'm with you there on Kosminski being the best lead we have, but it isn't a sure bet to me, and it barely treads water for me. As an aside, I contacted an author of several books on Britain's Jewry. One looks promising regarding the Berner Street Club. I'm trying to get a list of members from her, but I've got to handle the situation with kid gloves. I am so interested in Jewish labor unions and radicals, but I also have to explain that I want to know for Ripper reasons too. I would love to see either the name Kosminski or Abrahams on the roster.

Cheers,

Mike

[Jon Guy]

Precicely my point about Kosminski

My fault, sorry,missed your point as I didn`t realise Kosminski was a violent, schitzo.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Mike

The Post was Rob House Post to Carroty Nel..Not mine, I was just trying to remind myself of Robs Theory..which I went over with him in some detaqil when he came to London...

I'm sure Rob has been considering a news paper article that suggests the Batty Street connection is about Laundary... NOT a Lodger.

Perhaps we should PM him I would hate to be miss quoting him..I'm working from memory (and I'm not getting any younger)

I'm certain Rob would be interested in your research..and would suggest you try the name Abraham..I gather he is writing a book so any help/information you can offer etc.

Schizophrenia is my area..well my brothers..I state some more detail on the thread 'Aaron or Not' (last post)

However my main argument Re: Schizophrenia..is that it happens in waves..often age 22 (Which makes Aaron better suspect for Schizophrenia than Sutcliffe) Psychotic episodes last typically three months..

Almost the precise length of time as the Autumn of terror..

Sufferer recovers for period of time..then Psychotic episode returns..getting steadily worse..so ythat the suffer may not be able to function or so bad..locked up..

Symptom's of Schizophrenia mean the suffer sometimes uses alcohol to stop vioces...Alcohol can make sufferer very dangerous..

Remember BS man discribed as drunk?

Anyway best of luck..and you are correct nothing is that simple..I simply make the piont Kosminski is the best suspect..if the only..we have...

Pirate

P.S. You are right to be cautious approaching the Jewish community, it is a very sensitive subject, and there are right wing elements that will twist and corrupt information still around today.

However Kosminski was Ill..the fact he was Jewish was/is irrelivant..and remember most sufferers of Schizophrenia are completely harmless

[Fisherman]

Steve writes:

"Sam!
You get worse"

...who would have thought it? Im flabbergasted.

The best,

Fisherman

[Celesta]

Hi Good Mike,

I'm not adamant about any suspect at this time, so I'm not taking any sides. I recently read William Beadle's JtR: Anatomy of a Myth, which is actually pretty fair overall, for several reasons. He makes an interesting case that the police never got past the notion of Leather Apron, which hampered their investigation. Kosminski, in the eyes of Sir Robert, fit the bill of Leather Apron, a mad, Jewish suspect.

It's an interesting notion, but how true it is that the police, as a whole, remained locked into the vision of Leather Apron, I'm not sure. Certainly, Sir Robert had that view.

Also, in the case of Blotchy, no one saw or heard a peep out of Mary Kelly, after Cox left that night. The only thing left is George Hutchinson. If we deny Hutchinson and Lewis, we're left with Blotchy or nothing. Frustrating.

Best,

Cel