George Hitchinson: a simple question

[GregBaron]

Clarifications....

Thanks Ben for the clarifications...

It doesn't seem like Hutch walking around in the rain all night moping is a great excuse.....I wonder if people passed out in doorways on nights without doss money?

It just seems to me that in the other murders JTR was all but a ghost and Hutch was suddenly center stage....

But again, anyone capable of the horror perpetrated on MJK, to me was also the Ripper as not many can stoop to such depravity....especially to someone he knew and was supposedly friends with...........I'm sorry I just can't see Hutch as our man..............based more on intuition than evidence naturally............

[joelhall]

Hi Joel

According to Charles Booth " Life and Labour of the people in London", 1903,
most pubs opened at 07.30 or 08.00 and closed at 12.30.

Hi Joel

Yes, and the one in the centre of the photo in post #254 would be the one above the entrance to Crossinghams across the road from Millers Court. Chris Scott recently posted a report from a Scottish newspaper that stated that Dorset Street was very brightly lit at night but I can't find it in order to quote. Hutchinson would have had plenty of time (and light) to observe Mr A. and his garb as the couple stood outside the entrance to Millers Court. Like a lot of people here I keep away from the Hutchinson threads as that way madness lies, but for what it's worth I'd say that if Hutchinson had been Kelly's murderer he would have to have been as stupid as anyone who ever existed to inject himself into the police investigation.

thanks for the info guys

regarding the extent of witness testimony...

in 'the complete history of jack the ripper' pp 131-2, sugden notes dr. phillips reluctance to divulge the muilations, and coroner baxters reasons why he must state them, & also with regards to witness testimony:

'in the first case he was obligued by law to take the whole of dr. phillips' evidence, fot the statute de coronatore required coroners to inquire into the nature, characters and size of every wound on a dead body to enter the information on their rolls. the purpose of this requirement was to preserve the evidence of the crime.... similarly, as baxter intimated at the chapman inquest, it was important that the testimonies of all the witnesses be fully entered in the records of the court so that their evidence might in future be turned up even if they themselves could no longer be traced. [italics added.] baxter believed... that the publication of police knowledge furthered the process of detection by eliciting fresh information from the press and general public.'

[Ben]

You're very welcome, Greg.

I wonder if people passed out in doorways on nights without doss money?

Oh, I've no doubt they did, but where this impacts upon the "alibi" issue is that even "dossing in doorways" could be either verified of contradicted by one of the residents of the building in question. The only thing that couldn't be verified or contradicted is "walking about all night", at least not in those pre-CCTV days.

I respect your differing opinion. I cannot, after all, argue against an intuition. I would point out, though, that we only have it Hutchinson's questionable authority that he was friends with Mary Kelly.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

If Hutch - as the murderer - would have been so stupid to inject himself, then why did the police never suspected him???
As a fact, Hutch - murderer or not - did inject himself, and Abberline did not suspect him. Barnett, in comparison, was more carefully questioned.
Maybe Hutch was an alias: his real name was Fleming, and he decided to go to the police after two witnesses had revealed his relationship with Mary.

Amitiés,
David

[joelhall]

Out of curiosity - Dorset Street, that has about the worst reputation of them all, seems to have been very well lit at some stretches, at least judging from Joels photo.
How about the maps? We have lighting points established on them, but do we only have the lamps provided by the city of London accounted for? Commercial lamps, like the ones outside pubs and boarding houses and shops - are they represented in the maps?

The best, all!
Fisherman

good point, im curious too. one would expect that only those public owned would be on an official/public map. however, if lighting was so few & far between (comparatively speaking), then perhaps they would include those on large or communal building, such as factories, pubs, tenements, etc.

[Ben]

Hello Joel,

Here's an interesting exchange from the Eddowes inquest:

[Coroner] What sort of man was this? - He had on a cloth cap with a peak of the same.
Mr. Crawford: Unless the jury wish it, I do not think further particulars should be given as to the appearance of this man.
The Foreman: The jury do not desire it.
Mr. Crawford (to witness): You have given a description of the man to the police? - Yes.

If the killer was keeping abrest of police "progress" and had read this extract from the Daily Telegraph, he would undoubtedly have been alarmed. "Special reason"? Withheld descriptions? Unsettling at best, especially when the full description was published much further down the line on 19th October.

If I had read that article at the time, I'd be thinking: what if they tried that naughty trick again with another witness at the next murder?

Best regards,
Ben

[joelhall]

Are you kidding?

Hutchinson claimed to have been standing at the corner of Dorset Street when the couple stood at the entrance to Miller's Court. Already that's quite a distance in the dark, and with no light above the entance to Miller's Court (none that I'm aware of anyway). He could have observed nothing but dark figures conversing from that distance and in those lighting conditions. If Hutchinson had any opportunity to observe the man's garb, it could only have occured on Commerical Street.

im not sure this is accurate. in his statement, hutchinson states:

'they both went into dorset street i followed them. they stood on the corner of the court for about 3 minutes... they both then went up the court together. i then went to the court to see if i could see them'

unfortunately he does not give us his position exactly, but we can reasonably assume he was close enough to see them just inside the entrance, rather than on the corner of dorset street (as he states he followed them). the point about light is a tricky one, though i do wonder if the landlord would not have put some type of light inside the passage for those going to & from home at night?

[joelhall]

If Hutch - as the murderer - would have been so stupid to inject himself, then why did the police never suspected him???
As a fact, Hutch - murderer or not - did inject himself, and Abberline did not suspect him. Barnett, in comparison, was more carefully questioned.
Maybe Hutch was an alias: his real name was Fleming, and he decided to go to the police after two witnesses had revealed his relationship with Mary.

Amitiés,
David

perhaps they put it down to the serial killings rather than an individual murder after suspecting barnett as the most likely suspect for this due to his recent relationship. hutch gives no indication of a close relationship of this nature, so this might be what drew attention away.

having said that we cannot tell at present if they did suspect him at one point.

[Ben]

Hi Joel,

unfortunately he does not give us his position exactly, but we can reasonably assume he was close enough to see them just inside the entrance, rather than on the corner of dorset street (as he states he followed them).

It was in the newspapers that Hutchinson elaborated on his position at the time of his alleged "continued" sighting. He stood on the corner of Dorset Street as the couple allegedly conversed at the entrance to Miller's Court. Realistically, he could not have been any closer anyway, or else Kelly and Astrakhan would certainly have noticed him tailing them from behind at such close quarters. If he wanted to notice anything more about the man's appearance, he would have to have stood right next to him again in Dorset Street. Hutchinson only moved forward from his position at the corner of Dorset Street after the pair ventured through the passage leading to the court.

There was a light in Miller's Court but it was located inside the court, facing Kelly's room. There was no light, gas-generated or otherwise, at the entrance to the court itself. Not as far as I'm aware.

Regards,
Ben

[joelhall]

Hi Joel,



It was in the newspapers that Hutchinson elaborated on his position at the time of his alleged "continued" sighting.

unfortunately with this case, the papers and journalists tended to 'elaborate' quite a bit.

[Ben]

Oh, true.

But the press tended to sensationalize existing evidence, and "standing on the corner of Dorset Street" was a pretty mundane and non-sensational detail. As I mentioned, any closer to the couple than that and we're left with an even more patently bogus proposal; Hutchinson following them at extremely close quarters and both Kelly and "Astrakhan" turning a blind eye!

[GregBaron]

Hutch?

Sorry to ask this as I'm too lazy to go back and research but what do we really know of Hutchison? I can't remember, do we know what he did for a living? Would he have been off on weekends? Any description? Would his job have made him physically strong as a profiler suggested the ripper was? Did he live in the flop houses? I think it would have been hard to come barreling into a crowded tenement house after a murder with knife, blood and kidney handy without arousing suspicion. Did he ever have a wife or kids? When did he die? From what I remember of my reading we don't know much about him. I assume someone has done the leg work...........?

Sincerely,

Greg

[DVV]

Hi Greg,
several "GH" have been revealed in the census, but none of them really matches "our" GH. That's why there is a possibility for "GH" to be an alias, in our case.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

about Mr Astrakhan...

I wonder how many people here believe in Mr Astrakhan... the man seen twice by Hutchinson... and by Hutchinson only...
I recall one James Hadley Chase: "Believe this, you believe everything"...

Amitiés,
David

[joelhall]

his address is given as the victoria home, commercial street.

however you may find this interesting...

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/ripperoo-hutch.html

joel