George Hitchinson: a simple question

[Ben]

I wrote:

"See, that's the problem with these little desperate experiments; we only have your word for it, and frankly you might be making it up to score points."

That's not an accusation. It doesn't mean I "believe" you're making it up. It's an acknowledgement that you could have been. For all you know, I could have been doing precisely the same thing with the experiments I carried out in Spitalfields. That's neither an accusation or an implication. It's a caution, and no, I don't feel embarrassed for making it. We can't take Richard's "I heard Reg on the radio" as any sort of evidence for precisely the same reason. We only have his word for it, but that doesn't mean we think he's making it up. You might have taken umbrage at the suggestion that that your efforts were "desperate", but then you did swear at me repeatedly in the preceding post.

So, Ben, when I make a perfectly reasonable comparison of how you allow yourself to treat two perfectly uncontroversial remarks in totally differing manners

I disputed the comparison and disputed that I treated them differently, as I explain above. I don't think that constitutes any sinister tactic on my part.

Having said that, I think this is not something that should take up too much space on a thread unintended for it.

Absolutely agreed.

Best regards,
Ben

[joelhall]

Most establishments that had gas lighting of a private nature outside their premises,were very concious of the cost of keeping them lit.If it was neccessary to have them lit, such as advertising being open,or to display wares ,they were turned off as soon as business closed for that day.At 2am in the morning,there would not be other than corporation street lighting.

i agree with fisherman. it would seem sensible that private dwellings or doss houses, which saw people come & go at all hours would surely leave some lights lit.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"That's not an accusation. It doesn't mean I "believe" you're making it up. It's an acknowledgement that you could have been. For all you know, I could have been doing precisely the same thing with the experiments I carried out in Spitalfields."

Of course you could. But I would never had implied such a thing nor would I have pointed out that the risk was there, since such a risk could ONLY be there if you were in any way prepared to take the step of making things up. Not to recognize that would be silly, and we don´t want to be silly, do we?

Returning to the subject at hand (or thread), I was kind of hoping that you would have a comment to make on my latest post on gas lighting, Ben. That Bray burner does not offer a flickering light, exactly.

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Returning to the subject at hand (or thread), I was kind of hoping that you would have a comment to make on my latest post on gas lighting, Ben.

Very interesting, Fish.

I don't know when the Bray burners were patented, but we have established that gas lamps were not available in the form of a bright, shining flame until after 1891. Before then, they were comparatively primative open flames, flickering or not.

Best regards,
Ben

[harry]

Boarding houses especially were alive to costs,and most had rules as to when inmates had to be in at nights,before doors were closed and entry and departure denied.No need for lights at 2am.
In addition Hutchinson's reason for being on the street was that The Victoria Home was closed,and if that establishment was,then so probably were all others.No need for lights.
I also said Aberline expressed opinion as to truthfulness,consequently he left room for doubt.

[Fisherman]

These lamps were around from AT LEAST the 1860:s and forward, as can be seen from the material I presented, although when and where they were patented, I don´t know. In 1888 they had been around for a couple of decades at the very least though. And I have no idea of what lamps were used in Dorset Street, but judging by the ongoing discussion on the thread, I think we may have to open up for the possibility that the lamps that were not installed by the city of London, but instead by people running commercial businesses, could have been of any make. And although the city´s own lamps may or may not have been badly kept in some (or many, who knows) cases, one thing is for sure: If a commercial interest could be enhanced by pushing it with the help of the brightest lamp you could afford, it would be. What is today a fight between neon signs would have been a fight between gas lamps back then, if I´m right.

And although the drawing I pointed to, the one depicting a Paris street scene, is nothing more than a drawing, I think it shows that there may have been some hefty gas lamps around as early as 1842.

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

And although the drawing I pointed to, the one depicting a Paris street scene, is nothing more than a drawing, I think it shows that there may have been some hefty gas lamps around as early as 1842

Well no, Fish, unfortunately we can't draw conclusions from what a painting says. They could have been made heftier with a paintbrush to enhance the delights of the painting. In fact, looking at the painting, that's precisely what happened since the scene in question couldn't possibly have been as well-lit as the painting depicted.

If a commercial interest could be enhanced by pushing it with the help of the brightest lamp you could afford, it would be.

That's dependent upon who installed the lighting, and it certainly doesn't follow that a commercial interest would plump for the brightest lamps around, even if that option was available to them. It wasn't as though they had appreciable range in 1888, anyway, since they were all essentially open flames. While there's no doubt that a range of "brightness" existed, I doubt very much that the range was very large. Bray's was a manufacturer of gas lamps, as far as I'm aware, and the quality of the product would have improved over time.

The man in the drawing with the cigar was sitting by a gas mantle, unavailable in 1888.

Incidentally, there was only one lodging house on Commerical Street, as far as I know - the Victoria Home.

Best regards,
Ben

[Monty]

Gas Lamps...again

Guys,

At work right now however heres just a snippet of my research.

"As the intense light obtained from the heating of a pellicle of small particles of non-combustible matter is destined to act an important part in the future of economic and brilliant gas lighting, some particulars of the phenomenon may call for notice.

It may oftentimes have been observed that in the dull embers of burning charcoal from logs of oak or ash some stationary sparks appear at times, giving out an intense white light, which illuminates all surrounding objects, and lasts for several seconds, much resembling in colour and brilliance the light of the electric glow lamp.

It is a property of very small particles to attract invisible heat and disperse it in the form of light. The effect depends principally on the minute size of the radiating atoms, their non-conduction for heat, and its consequent retention, and also their absolute infusibility. A very fine platinum wire held in the out-flame of a candle gives an intense light, and has a collective power for heat by which such a high temperature is induced, that the cobweb wire becomes actually fused.

In the year 1852 some tufts of confervae, or common ‘hair weed’ were sent to me for examination. These were taken from some rock pools called ‘Hell’s Kettles’ in consequence of continuous bubbles of carbonic-acid gas [carbon dioxide] rising to the surface of the water. The filaments of the weed were coated with a white deposit in which diatoms were expected to be seen under the microscope. I found that the coating was amorphous, being nothing else but a very fine deposit of carbonate of lime without struc*ture. I held a few of the filaments in a gas-flame and was struck by the intense light given out. The vegetable substance of the filament was of course consumed but the lime coating, being infusible, retained its form. I then attached a fringe of these filaments from a ring of wire, and suspended it so as to encircle a small solid or Bunsen gas-flame, and got a fine white light arising entirely from incandescence of the lime. I took no further hint of this at the time as the least puff of air was sufficient to break up the fabric.

In the year 1880, having then in view improvements for increasing the intensity of ordinary gas light, I called to mind the foregoing experiment and reproduced it in a more substantial and stable form. I first constructed a cage of very fine platinum wire to inclose a Bunsen gas-flame; knowing that thin platinum in time became disintegrated and wasted by the continued action of gas-flame, I brushed on a protective coat consisting of a paste of very fine fluor-spar. The heat from the flame acted upon both the inner and outer surfaces of the cage. By this means I got a brilliant light from an otherwise invisible flame. The chief objection to this light was that it had a somewhat greenish tinge.

The fluor-spar is quite infusible and is decomposed into its elements by continued heating. The light, though very economical in gas consumption is far surpassed in this respect by the now well-known regenerative lamp, a form which I soon afterwards introduced into the market, but the ‘incandes*cent’ gas-light has the merit of great simplicity, and can be understood and managed by anyone, and consequently has recently been very popular, and improvements will probably be forthcoming that will greatly enhance its use and efficiency.

F.H.Wenham, The English Mechanic, 1894"

and

G[I]as.—The names of the London Gas Companies, with the addresses of their chief offices, are as follows:

The Gas Light and Coke Company, Horseferry-road, S.W.
The London, 26, Southampton-street, Strand.
The South Metropolitan, 589, Old Kent-road.
The Phoenix, 70, Bankside.
The Commercial, Harford-st, Stepney.

The gas delivered by the various companies is of such an illuminating power, that when consumed at the ordinary pressure, at the rate of 5 cubic feet per hour in a No.1 Sugg’s Standard Argand burner, it gives a light equal to 15 sperm candles. The definition of a “candle” is the light given by a pure sperm candle, consuming 120 grains of sperm per hour. The price charged for gas varies from 3s. to 3s. 6d. per 1,000 cubic feet.

THE SERVICE PIPE is the pipe which conducts gas from the company’s main in the street to the consumer’s meter. It is generally laid to just within the precincts of the consumer’s premises, and maintained at the Company’s expense When a new service pipe, or an alteration in the size of an existing one is required, notice must be sent to the gas company’s office, stating the number of gas burners for lighting, gas stoves for cooking, and gas fires for heating it is proposed to use. On taking possession of a house the service pipe is generally found disconnected and capped off in the area. Before making use of it notice must be sent to the gas company, who then send their inspector with a printed form of contract for signature; and this contract is to the effect that the consumer will hold himself responsible for all gas consumed on the premises, and will permit access to the meter by any one of their authorised servants at all reasonable hours.
When an outgoing tenant quits a house leaving a quarter’s gas unpaid, the company cannot make the incoming tenant responsible for such default, or refuse on this account to supply him with gas.
When a stoppage occurs in the service-pipe from the deposit of napthalin, by writing to the gas company’s office men are sent to remove it without any charge being made to the consumer.

THE GAS METER.—In all dwelling houses it is better to employ a “dry” than a “wet’ meter, and better to rent it from the gas company, who will be responsible for its proper working and maintenance, than to buy one. When a 5-light meter is spoken of, it means a meter of sufficient capacity to supply gas for 5 argand burners, each consuming, say from 6 to 8 cubic feet per hour, so that a 5-light meter will be quite sufficient for 8 or 9 ordinary fish-tail burners. The idea that the gas company can force the meter round, or in any way influence its registration in an improper way, is absurd.
Under the “Sale of Gas Acts,” gas consumers have the privilege of having their meters tested should their correctness be doubted at the offices of the Metropolitan Board of Works. These offices are for the northern and eastern divisions at White Lion-street, Shoreditch; for south eastern division at Castle-street, Southwark; and for western division, St. Ann-street, Westminster.

The charge for testing meters is as follows: 1 to 5 light meter inclusive, 6d. each; 10 to 40 light meter inclusive, 1s. each; 50 to 60 light meter inclusive, 2s. each; 80 to 100 light meter inclusive, 3s. each, and so on. Should the Gas Company be proved to be in the wrong they have to pay the expense of testing, which otherwise falls on the consumer.

Gas pipes laid throughout a building should in all cases be of wrought iron and painted with two coats of oil paint. No pipe less than ½ inch internal bore should be permitted. To burn gas as supplied in London economically, the rule is large pipes and low pressure.

The pressure of gas to a house is best regulated by a wet governor —it is an exceedingly simple, durable, and efficient instrument. The mercurial governor is objectionable owing to the contracted gas ways, and the liability of the mercury to get into and destroy the meter. There are innumerable patent regulators, but none work better than the wet governor.

GAS BURNERS.—The argand and fishtail burners, made by Sugg, of Westminster, and supplied by all respectable gasfitters, are on questionably the best. It is often supposed that if a good fishtail or flat flame burner is employed, it burns equally well whatever shape of globe be used; this is not the case, the best form of globe is spherical, with a large opening, say 3 ¼ in. at the bottom, and 3 ½ in. at thc top. Melon or pine shaped globes are bad, saucer shaped are still worse. For reception and bedrooms the opal Christiania shade or globe, with a No: 4 or 5 flat flame stentite burner, gives the best and most agreeable result with the least consumption of gas. The Bronner burner is economical, but must not he used in places exposed to much draught. For basement offices the No. 4 flat flame burner will answer every purpose. The constant complaint of consumers about the “bad gas” either means that the supply of gas is deficient or that it is improperly consumed: with deficient supply it must rest either with the gas company, whose service pipe may be stopped, or with the consumer, whose fittings may be choked up or too small: in the case of bad burners the remedy is an easy one. The comparison on the same chandelier of a No. 5 flat flame burner with 7 ½ .in. Christiania shade, will at once show whether the old burners and globes are or are not of the right kind. And when a good, burner and globe are obtained it is necessary to keep them free from dust, by using a soft duster for the former, and by washing the latter twice a week. It should always be remembered that what the consumer wants and pays for is so much light rather than so many cubic feet of gas. And while the quality of the gas supplied in London does not appreciably vary, it is only by using the best burners, fitted in the best and most intelligent manner that satisfactory results can be obtained.

Charles Dickens (Jr.), Dickens's Dictionary of London, 1879[/I]

and....just for jolly...

Victorian London - Lighting - Gas - shop windows
MEETING A GAS-METER.



OF all the nuisances of living in a cheap neighbourhood, none is to be compared - not even the organ nuisance - to the one of having to meet on your way home some fifty jets of gas, which rush up to you as if they had something confidential to whisper in your ear. Butchers particularly encourage this nuisance. They cannot turn the gas inside their shops, for then there would be a chance of all the joints which were hanging in its proximity being slowly cooked by gas; so they twist it outside and roast the public with it.
A Correspondent writes to say that, during the culinary process, he has had a valuable new hat done to a turn, and a whisker completely burnt to rags. As he has to meet this gaseous broadside every night, he is afraid that the other whisker will soon perish under a similar fire, and he wishes to know if he cannot recover damages for the assault, which lie modestly values at £500£250 each whisker. We will lay the case before MR. BRIEFLESS.

Punch, Jan.-Jun. 1852


Most regular and reliable is a third medium for the lighting-up of London—the gas. The sun and moon may be behind their time, but the gas is always at its post. And in winter, it happens sometimes that it does service all day long. Its only drawback is, that it cannot be had gratis, like the light from the sun, moon, and stars; but the same inconveniences attend the gas on the Continent, and after all, it is cheaper in England than anywhere else. The Germans are mere tyros in the consumption of gas. The stairs of every decent London house, have generally quite as much light as a German shop, and the London shop are more strongly lighted up than the German theatre Butchers, and such-like tradesmen, especially in the smaller streets, burn the gas from one-inch tubes, that John Bull, in purchasing his piece of mutton or beef, may see each vein, each sinew, and each lump of fat. The smaller streets and the markets, are literally inundated with gaslight especially on Saturday evenings. No city on the Continent offers such a sight. In the apothecary’s shops, the light is placed at the back of gigantic glass bottles, filled with coloured liquid, so that fro a distance you see it in the most magnificent colour. The arrangement is convenient for those who are in search of such shop, and it gives the long and broad streets of London a strange and picturesque appearance.

Max Schlesinger, Saunterings in and about London, 1853

Finally, by 1888 Leadenhall Street was actually electrically lit.

Monty

[Fisherman]

"the scene in question couldn't possibly have been as well-lit as the painting depicted."

I realy don´t think we are seeing much of an exxageration here. The drawing shows quite a mundane street in Paris, and if there were many enough gas lamps their light would have been reflected against the facades in a striking manner.
That said, I think the guy who drew the whole thing was very impressed by the light, and made it the central focus in his motive. But don´t forget that he was impressed for a reason, Ben - that street would have been well lit.

"it certainly doesn't follow that a commercial interest would plump for the brightest lamps around"

It is a very tempting thought, though, and something that has been confirmed both before and after 1888. If you need to sell, you need to show.

"The man in the drawing with the cigar was sitting by a gas mantle, unavailable in 1888."

Thanks for that piece of information, Ben. Still, it´s such a nice ad, is it not?

Now I´ll sink my teeth into Monty´s post...

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

I realy don´t think we are seeing much of an exxageration here. The drawing shows quite a mundane street in Paris, and if there were many enough gas lamps their light would have been reflected against the facades in a striking manner

Oh, you must surely conceed that it's monstrously exaggerated, Fish. It might have been a well-lit area for the standards of the day, but the impression given in that painting is that the lighting is so brilliant that objects and people fade into the "white"!

If you need to sell, you need to show.

True, in principle, Fish, but I don't think lodging houses had much press "need" in thar regard. They'd be deluged regardless.

You're right, it was a very nice ad with the cigar man. He looked most cosy and contented. Thanks for posting it.

Best regards,
Ben

P.S. Thanks for that, Monty! I too will peruse...

[Fisherman]

Fantastic stuff, Monty! A whisker completely burnt to rags...!

It is not easy to apply all of this to Dorset Street on that November night, but it makes for very valuable reading. It is very obvious that there was gaslight around that could light up things in a very extensive manner (burn the gas from one-inch tubes, that John Bull, in purchasing his piece of mutton or beef, may see each vein, each sinew, and each lump of fat). It is tempting to read "each gold-chain, each seal-stone and each horseshoe pin" here, but we of course cannot allow ourselves this.

And it should be kept in mind that the magnificent impression made by the gas light was something that followed ages that were extremely poorly lit. Todays people, used to lighting excesses of a totally different calibre, would not think the gas-lit city of London all that bright, I´m sure.
Still, I believe that we must allow for a city that was in general much better lit than to allow just for a fleeting seconds observation of a bypasser in the street.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

"Oh, you must surely conceed that it's monstrously exaggerated, Fish. It might have been a well-lit area for the standards of the day, but the impression given in that painting is that the lighting is so brilliant that objects and people fade into the "white"!

Monstruously exaggerated? No, not by any means. And since the artist would have worked from what may have been a dark spot, he would have been greatly impressed by the power of that light. Strong gas light, reflecting facades, very well lit up windows where those who could afford the most expensive lighting to any excessive degree lived - No, my guess is that the whole scene bathed in light to a significant extent.

Not that it applies in Dorset Street, though. And I think that a discussion on exactly HOW much light the drawer saw would bring up the name van Gogh sooner or later, and therefore I think it would be wise not to take it that far!

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

burn the gas from one-inch tubes, that John Bull, in purchasing his piece of mutton or beef, may see each vein, each sinew, and each lump of fat

Yeah, if you hold it inches away from the light and concentrate on it, Fish!

And it should be kept in mind that the magnificent impression made by the gas light was something that followed ages that were extremely poorly lit.

Exactly. When the first wheels were invented, it must have been observed that here was a truly excellent wheel.

Still, I believe that we must allow for a city that was in general much better lit than to allow just for a fleeting seconds observation of a bypasser in the street.

It allowed for observation and general impressions, Fish, yes, but not lots and lots of fiddly accessorial details all noticed and committed to memory at the same time.

Best regards,
Ben

[Ben]

Monstruously exaggerated? No, not by any means. And since the artist would have worked from what may have been a dark spot, he would have been greatly impressed by the power of that light.

Are we looking at the same painting, Fish?:

http://images.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/hist255-s01/mapping-paris/images/renoir.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/hist255-s01/mapping-paris/Gaslights.html&h=330&w=450&sz=48&hl=sv&start=2&um=1&usg=__HXQEn51ouKx8zuN2jxQYLRIdF_4=&tbnid=coxLJe0WbR64oM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522the%2Bchanging%2Bstreets%2Bof%2Bparis%2522%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dsv%26sa%3DN

It couldn't possibly have been anywhere near as bright as that at street level, or else they'd all be blinded. It might very well have seemed unusually bright for the standards of the day, which were primative by modern standards, and that may well have led the painter to over-egg the pudding on the lighting front.

therefore I think it would be wise not to take it that far!

Agreed.

Cheers,
Ben

P.S. Yes, excellent research, Monty! Most enlightening (geddit?)

[Fisherman]

Ben wants to know:
"Are we looking at the same painting, Fish?"

That we are, Ben!

The best, Fisherman