Morris Eagle the Ripper

[The Good Michael]

Observer,

Truthfully, I'm having a hard time reconciling Morris as the Ripper. Unless he was opportunistic and killed Stride because she was near the yard and he was JTR and just had to do it, I don't know how he could be guilty. In my mind, he would have had to walk all over the place, bring her back to the Club, and then kille her. It seems like a lot of work to me. Maybe his intentions were different at first, but then he snapped.

I'm not letting him off the hook just yet, but I do want to list other possibilities:

1. The man escorting Stride was a club member, but when they got to the gates, she was informed that she was unwelcome. The club member went into followed by Eagle after he threw the girl into the street. This would mean that someone else came along and killed her after she got up, or helped her up and then killed her.

2. BS man was escorting Stride all over the place when he decided to walk to the Club, or pass by the Club. Eagle had already returned and was inside. BS Man got into an altercation, and after Schwartz and Pipeman moved on, killed Stride quickly. He may or may not have been the Ripper

3. Same as scenario one, except that Pipeman was JTR and came back and killed Stride in the yard because he thought everything was now kosher (pun) and quiet, and because no one had a good look at him (he thought).
He didn't count on Diemschutz coming up the road.

4. Diemschutz, whose job kept him up all night, was the Ripper. He came to the yard just after the altercation, helped Stride up, and then took her into the yard to kill her. Then he hopped back up on the cart and went into the yard and played it all out.

I don't see the Ripper escorting her all about town, though it is possible that he wasn't intending on killing until he got enraged over something. The only other possibility I can think of is a one-off killing by whomever took her back to the yard, and whomever was BS man. This could be Kidney or anyone else in the area.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Mike!

There is one thing that has not been mentioned before, and that points away from BS man being Eagle. It is connected to the article in the Star, and not to the police report on Schwartz, but i think it may well be considered useful.
In the police report, we make BS manīs aquaintance as he stops and talks to Stride, whereas in the Star, Scwartz says that he is following behind BS man as he approaches the gates of the yard.
In both cases we have BS man halting his promenade, but we are allowed a promenade in his company that is a wee bit longer in the Star version. If wa accept that Schwartz actually followed behind BS man as he passed outside the club, then we must keep in mind that Eagle did something that would probably have stuck in Schwartzīmind if he had seen it; he tried the front door entrance, only to find it locked.
This is something Schwartz does not mention, and I think it would be strange to omitt it if he had seen it.

I think we are agreed that Eagle is not too good a bid for BS manīs role, and that believing that he was the Ripper makes for an even lousier case.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Some much needed clarification

This is a timeline based upon Tom Wescott's idea that Morris Eagle could have been the Ripper and the broad-shouldered man.

While Good Michael's intentions are no doubt...ahem...good, he has completely misrepresented me here. I have never suggested Morris Eagle was the Ripper and don't even see him as Stride's killer, although that is slightly more feasible.

What I have suggested is the Schwartz saw Eagle move Stride out of his way when re-entering the club. I suggest this because he returned to the club via the passageway at 12:40am. This was testified to by other club members, so Eagle could not have denied it had he wanted to. He had REASON to be stopping at that gateway and speaking to anyone there. He REASON to be moving a prostitute out of the way (toward the street). He was also reported as reacting more than the other club members when he saw Stride's dead body just after 1am. Why the overt reaction? Perhaps because he recognized her from earlier. It's a pretty simple scenario that makes sense of all the most viable witness testimony. But of course I never suggested him as the Ripper and don't really see why he'd be her killer, either. But an aggressive young man kicking a whore out of his yard? Sure.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Hi Tom!

Was it not said or suggested somewhere that Eagle was distressed by the sight of blood? I think that may be at least part of the explanation of why he reacted strongly to the corpse of Stride.

As for your stating that he had reason to move a prostitute out of the way from the club "spare entrance" - maybe, and maybe not. Maybe a socialist would solidarize himself with a prostitute instead? I am really not all that sure that he would feel compelled to move her away.

How do you feel about the part in the Star where it says that Schwartz followed BS man past the club, without recognizing that the man in question had tried the handle of the club main entrance? To me it suggests that this man was NOT Eagle; which, of course, ties in nicely with my assumption that "Lipski" would not be a very likely thing for him to yell at a jewish bypasser!

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

I don't pretend to know what Eagle or anyone else was thinking that night. Is it feasible he would be annoyed or frustrated at finding a prostitute in his club's yard? Sure. Do I know that? Of course not. However, he would have known the front door of the club was locked that evening so would not have tried it but instead gone the usual way through the passage.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Oh, he tried that door alright, Tom; itīs recorded in the inquest material:
"I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way."

And I believe that such a thing would not have gone unnoticed by Schwartz - but he had nothing to say on the matter in the evidence he gave.

As for whether Eagle would see a prostitute off or not, finding her at his club entrance, it was only a suggestion on my behalf. It is well known that communities of artists and such people living in Paris at the very same time and holding the wiews of socialism and anarchism made it a point of honour to show solidarity with the poor and the outcasts of society, and I am not all that sure that this could not have applied in the East End too.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I had forgotten that detail about Eagle trying the front door first, so thank you for the reminder. I would certainly think that an important clue, as it would tell us the destination of BS Man, so one WOULD think Schwartz would mention it, at least in the Star.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris Scott]

1891:
1 New Buildings, Tenter Street East, Whitechapel
Head: Morris Eagle aged 27 born Russia - Commercial Traveller
Wife: Kate Eagle aged 20 born Russia
Daughters:
Sarah aged 2 born London
Rose aged 8 months born London

Marriage:
1888 Quarter 4
London City
Married Kate Kopelansky
A couple by the names of Joseph and Rachel Kopelansky are listed living at the same address in 1891 census
Joseph is aged 25 at that time, and so is probably Kate's brother

Can't find any trace of Eagle in 1901 census

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris. Eagle had probably moved on to America by that point.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris Scott]

Many thanks Tom - much appreciated

[Tom_Wescott]

While a number of the Jewish socialists moved to New York (or aspired to), some also settled in New Jersey. Wish I could be more specific. But that's likely where you'll find Eagle, Diemschutz, and others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Tom,

Sorry for the misrepresentation. After re-reading the posts, I see that it was Pipeman, and Not BS/Eagle who you suggested might have been the Ripper. My mistake. Still, it wasn't a bad run for Eagle.

I also suggest that Eagle must have known Pipeman. At least it was a possibility.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

If Eagle was not BS Man then why 'must' he have known Pipeman? William Wess was aware of the Schwartz incident before it made the papers, so somebody did know somebody, but most likely it was Schwartz they knew.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Tom,

I meant Eagle/BS man must have known Pipeman. I wasn't clear.

Mike

[Debra A]

Can't find any trace of Eagle in 1901 census

Chris, Tom
Before the board crash Chris, you did find Kate and her children living with Kate's parents in 1901, I forget where though. Two of her youngest children were shown as born in South Africa.
I found and posted the details of Kate travelling in 1896 to South Africa with her two oldest children, Morris didn't appear on the pasenger lists though.