Mr Blotchy

[Fisherman]

If Kelly started to sing I think he would wait until she had finished. He doesn’t know who else is out there who might hear if she stopped mid-warble.

That´s just my point, Chava: he has no idea who - if anybody - is out there.

[Fisherman]

Also-IMHO its a weak argument that Blotchy wouldn't have killed Mary because he was seen. a lot of witnesses saw suspects/ripper. as long as he realized they didn't know him then it was a go-hes just some anonymous nobody.

No, Abby, that´s exactly what he is not. Not when he has been seen and can be described. At that stage, he is given an age, a size, a clothing, a demeanor, and he becomes somebody. He would only be an anonymous nobody if he was NOT seen.
There is always the risk that somebody will recognize the description, or even that the people who see him have a hunch who he is.

I would suggest that beeing seen by somebody is the perhaps most powerful factor in keeping the killer from killing.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Assuming for the sake of argument that Hutch was telling the truth he literally peered in the face of the Astrakhan man as opposed to fleeting and distant sightings of the other witnesses. I'm eliminating B.S. man as seen by Schwartz because I don't think he was Stride's killer.

I agree with your no detective worth his salt assessment and I don't think the detectives (including Abberline) who questioned Hutch were fools. Since they appeared to give him a pass they either didn't think he was lying or else they concluded that yes, he might have lied for some reason but that regardless he was not involved in Kelly's murder.

c.d.

many serial killers have gotten a "pass" by police. theyre usually good liars and manipulators.

[Abby Normal]

Fisherman that’s a really good point! But I don’t think it lets Blotchy off the hook even though he knew he had been seen. Kelly’s singing helps him in my opinion. If she hadn’t started her serenade he might have had second thoughts. Everything goes quiet after he goes in with her. Incriminating! But she sang for an hour. So couldn’t be him, right? Everyone is thinking—including members of this board—that he kind of lies in wait and pounces. But when you think about it there is no evidence for that. He could have spent time with all the other victims before he killed them. There’s missing time on all of them.

yup. apparently, he spent at least an hour or so trying to schmooze stride into a compromising situation. see marshalls, Schwartz (possibly PCsmith) peaked cap man.

[Michael W Richards]

Not so much Eddowes; he had to act pretty fast there, it seems. In the case of Nichols, too, he only appears to have had a maximum of just over one hour since Polly was last seen. Not that I'm dismissing the idea that the killer wouldn't have spent time with Kelly before killing her, but Kelly was a special case in that she had her own premises. Out on the streets, however, I doubt that there would really have been enough time for him to acquaint himself with his victims.

I don't imagine that a great deal of time was spent with any victim Sam, other than with Mary Kelly. Polly perhaps, but the where he struck seems to indicate it was a hastily made, spontaneous decision. The evidence suggests that with Annie she was killed when Cadosche heard the thud and cry, and he was gone a half an hour later, with Kate, if she is the person seen with Sailor Man, he would have had less than 10 minutes total, and with Liz Stride, from the point she is last seen on the street to the point when she supposedly was first found is 25 minutes. Since that killer only made one cut, you might argue he could have spent 20 minutes talking to her first, but we have nothing to use to support that idea.

As for the cashous, I was describing the normal usage, not the actual designation.

[Abby Normal]

If Kelly started to sing I think he would wait until she had finished. He doesn’t know who else is out there who might hear if she stopped mid-warble.

mid warble. LOL.
That's a good point Chava-id never thought of that. to me he waited probably to let things calm down a bit around millers court.

Also-IMHO its a weak argument that Blotchy wouldn't have killed Mary because he was seen. a lot of witnesses saw suspects/ripper. as long as he realized they didn't know him then it was a go-hes just some anonymous nobody.

[Chava]

If Kelly started to sing I think he would wait until she had finished. He doesn’t know who else is out there who might hear if she stopped mid-warble.

[Sam Flynn]

He could have spent time with all the other victims before he killed them. There’s missing time on all of them.

Not so much Eddowes; he had to act pretty fast there, it seems. In the case of Nichols, too, he only appears to have had a maximum of just over one hour since Polly was last seen. Not that I'm dismissing the idea that the killer wouldn't have spent time with Kelly before killing her, but Kelly was a special case in that she had her own premises. Out on the streets, however, I doubt that there would really have been enough time for him to acquaint himself with his victims.

[Fisherman]

Fisherman that’s a really good point! But I don’t think it lets Blotchy off the hook even though he knew he had been seen. Kelly’s singing helps him in my opinion. If she hadn’t started her serenade he might have had second thoughts. Everything goes quiet after he goes in with her. Incriminating! But she sang for an hour. So couldn’t be him, right? Everyone is thinking—including members of this board—that he kind of lies in wait and pounces. But when you think about it there is no evidence for that. He could have spent time with all the other victims before he killed them. There’s missing time on all of them.

And substantial such time! So of course it is possible that the killer spent time with his victims before killing them. I beleive the notion that he "blitzed" them immediately stems from the old view that he was a typically disorganized killer who could not help himself. That view has over the years given way to the idea of an organized killer, and such a man may well have spent time with the victims, making them feel secure, spriting them away from the crowds...
As for Blotchy being the possible killer, I am not opposed to the idea. But I remain unconvinced that our man would kill if he knew he had been seen very clearly. Reasonably, Blotchy could not be sure that people would hear Mary sing or that they would testify about it - and making a later kill would in your scenario more or less bank on it.
Of corse, WE know that Cox - and others - heard her, but how would Blotchy be able to bank on people even being at home? Cox certainly came and left, and so could others have.

[Chava]

Fisherman that’s a really good point! But I don’t think it lets Blotchy off the hook even though he knew he had been seen. Kelly’s singing helps him in my opinion. If she hadn’t started her serenade he might have had second thoughts. Everything goes quiet after he goes in with her. Incriminating! But she sang for an hour. So couldn’t be him, right? Everyone is thinking—including members of this board—that he kind of lies in wait and pounces. But when you think about it there is no evidence for that. He could have spent time with all the other victims before he killed them. There’s missing time on all of them.

[Fisherman]

It's the singing that's throwing me off regarding Blotchy. Up until now, Jack is the blitzkrieg killer, doesn't care who is within earshot of his murders, and doesn't seem to have any real sexual interest in his victims. Mary should have been murdered five minutes after closing her door; and if Blotchy's Jack, he should have been long gone by 1am. Instead I'm left to consider the possibility that he went back to her cold apartment, drank his beer by candlelight, and listened to her sing for the better part of an hour.

But the thing is we don’t know that he’s a ‘Blitzkrieg killer’. At the point he kills, yes. But we don’t know how much time he spends with his victims before that, and that time could vary. If Kelly was his chosen victim he would wait until she was vulnerable. And by the way I put no faith whatsoever in Hutch.

Years ago I started a thread that ran and ran about the piece of apron in Eddowes. I said we’d ignored it far too long and it was the only physical evidence in the case that was found away from the victim. Now I’m going to point out that Mr Blotchy is the only person in the case who matches descriptions given in multiple events. We look for reasons to exonerate him because we know Kelly was still alive for a while after going in with him. We ignore the fact that he knew he had been seen by Cox and therefore let his victim sing her head off to prove she was alive with him.

But surely no killer could hope to escape police attention on account of how it can be proven that the victim did not die immediately when faced with him? The deciding factor would more likely be whether the killer managed to stay unseen or not. In this case, Blotchy would know quite well that he HAD been seen - by Cox - and that his description would very likely be given to the police, regardless if he killed at 1, 2, 3, 4 or 7 o´clock.

[Fisherman]

Another possibility is that Blotchy escorted her home to be sure she arrived safely,..she rewarded him with a short serenade.

And on Stride...there is no evidence that Stride went off down into dark corners with any person she was seen with that night, she was dressed nicely, had requested the use of a lint brush for her skirt, and she had breath fresheners and a flower arrangement on her.

It´s just a very minor point, Michael, but I think we should not necessarily dub the cachous "breath fresheners". There were two types, and the ones Stride had were described as "sweetmeats", which would transcribe into candy, more or less.
It is a common enough mistake to call them breath fresheners, but it would be nice if we were a bit careful with the distinctions.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Robert

The other option is that the victims knew Jack. This explains why he was listening to Mary sing for an hour. Previous posts have shown how all the victims lived close to each other.

I also think the William Marshall saw Jack with Stride even though it was an hour before she died. The Marshall description is similar to PC Smith (Stride) and Lawende (Eddowes). Others have suggested Stride wasn't soliciting that night.
I also think Jack gave the victims a gift (the bonnet, rings, cigarette case) as a way to charm them.

Craig

Another possibility is that Blotchy escorted her home to be sure she arrived safely,..she rewarded him with a short serenade.

And on Stride...there is no evidence that Stride went off down into dark corners with any person she was seen with that night, she was dressed nicely, had requested the use of a lint brush for her skirt, and she had breath fresheners and a flower arrangement on her.

[Michael W Richards]

Well, thats what Dr Bond believed before the inquest, but after 1:00 am, according to Prater there was no light in her room, and all was quiet, then the room was more than likely empty.
Which Bond would not have been aware of.

I would think that based on the condition Mary was in when she arrived home, based on her most recent work ethic and fear of the streets, and based on the fact that she sang off and on for over an hour, the more likely conclusion is that she let Blotchy out and went to sleep.

No-one saw Blotchy leave the room....and no-one saw Mary leave the room...the only difference being that we know Blotchy left at some point.

[Sam Flynn]

Mr's Kennedy did not exist unless Lewis's shadow talked.

Nicely put!