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John Pizer and his Constable alibi?

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  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    Could be Debs, but he's not mentiined by name. And mostly the registered keepers didn't seem to live onsite, at least not overnight. So probably Piser was referring to a deputy or night watchman.
    Still, good find!
    Yes, JR, but the way I read it the incident didn't happen inside the lodging house. Pizer saw 'the lodging house keeper' talking to two PC's in the Holloway Road. Albert Crossingham and his family lived in the area also.

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  • Observer
    replied
    Hi Jon

    As has already been said, the incident with the night watchman would have stuck in his mind. It's time to drop Pizer from the investigation. Also, if Albert Crossingham owned the building, he would not have been up at two o clock in the morning taking fourpence's off lodgers, that's for sure.

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  • Jon Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Observer View Post
    Whitechapel murders, a big deal. It's ludicrous to suggest that Pizer's story regarding the fire he witnessed in the company of a police officer wasn't checked out.
    Agreed, and Coroner Baxter confirmed this after Pizer had testified:

    Coroner] Did you sleep the night there? - Yes. At what time did you go in? - On the night of the London Dock fire I went in about two or a quarter-past. It was on the Friday morning.
    [Coroner] When did you leave the lodging-house? - At eleven a.m. on the same day. I saw on the placards, "Another Horrible Murder." Where were you before two o'clock on Friday morning? - At eleven p.m. on Thursday I had my supper at the Round House.
    [Coroner] Did you go out? - Yes, as far as the Seven Sisters-road, and then returned towards Highgate way, down the Holloway-road. Turning, I saw the reflection of a fire. Coming as far as the church in the Holloway-road I saw two constables and the lodging-housekeeper talking together. There might have been one or two constables, I cannot say which. I asked a constable where the fire was, and he said it was a long way off. I asked him where he thought it was, and he replied: "Down by the Albert Docks." It was then about half-past one, to the best of my recollection. I went as far as Highbury Railway Station on the same side of the way, returned, and then went into the lodging house.
    [Coroner] Did any one speak to you about being so late? - No: I paid the night watchman. I asked him if my bed was let, and he said: "They are let by eleven o'clock. You don't think they are to let to this hour." I paid him 4d for another bed. I stayed up smoking on the form of the kitchen, on the right hand side near the fireplace, and then went to bed.
    [Coroner] You got up at eleven o'clock? - Yes. The day man came, and told us to get up, as he wanted to make the bed. I got up and dressed, and went down into the kitchen.
    [Coroner] Is there anything else you want to say? - Nothing.
    [Coroner] When you said the West-end of town did you mean Holloway? - No; another lodging house in Peter-street, Westminster.
    The Coroner: It is only fair to say that the witness's statements can be corroborated.

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  • Observer
    replied
    Whitechapel murders, a big deal. It's ludicrous to suggest that Pizer's story regarding the fire he witnessed in the company of a police officer wasn't checked out.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Station Cat
    replied
    I wonder whether this Constables details are included, in the "lost documents"? I further wonder how many other Police officers took an active part in the Ripper case, but due to the disappearance of these documents have been lost and forgotten from history.

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  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post
    Albert Crossingham?
    Could be Debs, but he's not mentiined by name. And mostly the registered keepers didn't seem to live onsite, at least not overnight. So probably Piser was referring to a deputy or night watchman.
    Still, good find!

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    It was really the lodging house keeper that supplied the alibi though;
    Albert Crossingham?

    Leave a comment:


  • Darryl Kenyon
    replied
    At that particular moment in time when Pizer gave his alibi, he was probably the number 1 police suspect. I am sure the police would have only been too happy to discredit it, [ more evidence of guilt, if it was proved to be false ], but it seems very likely that it was accepted. So unless over evidence comes to light, we must be quite confident that Pizer was telling the truth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by The Station Cat View Post
    I agree, but surely there must be more substance to it than Pizer's word?
    I think there probably is. Maybe with Thicke knowing him so well, perhaps the corroboration between the PC and the lodging house keeper was established or already known.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Station Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    its always seemed to be a rather flimsy alibi to me.

    I agree, but surely there must be more substance to it than Pizer's word?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by The Station Cat View Post
    Interesting, so the Constable alibi would appear to have come from the Coroner's hearing, assuming the Telegraph reporter is documenting it accurately. Curious how this was just taken as read and that the Constable(s) aren't named and thus Pizer's evidence collaborated, lets face it he wouldn't be the first witness to have lied on the stand.........
    its always seemed to be a rather flimsy alibi to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Station Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    Here's Piser's relevant evidence, from the Telegraph;

    "Where were you before two o'clock on Friday morning? - At eleven p.m. on Thursday I had my supper at the Round House.
    [Coroner] Did you go out? - Yes, as far as the Seven Sisters-road, and then returned towards Highgate way, down the Holloway-road. Turning, I saw the reflection of a fire. Coming as far as the church in the Holloway-road I saw two constables and the lodging-housekeeper talking together. There might have been one or two constables, I cannot say which. I asked a constable where the fire was, and he said it was a long way off. I asked him where he thought it was, and he replied: "Down by the Albert Docks." It was then about half-past one, to the best of my recollection. I went as far as Highbury Railway Station on the same side of the way, returned, and then went into the lodging house."

    At the end of his evidence, the coroner says;
    "It is only fair to say that the witness's statements can be corroborated"

    Presumably that includes the PC, but he isn't specifically mentioned. Being in Holloway Road, would that mean he was from G division?

    Interesting, so the Constable alibi would appear to have come from the Coroner's hearing, assuming the Telegraph reporter is documenting it accurately. Curious how this was just taken as read and that the Constable(s) aren't named and thus Pizer's evidence collaborated, lets face it he wouldn't be the first witness to have lied on the stand.........

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    I don't know the name of the PC but just for interest during research I found that the Round House, also given as 'Crossmans' in some newspapers but crucially Crossingham's in at least one paper. It was in fact a lodging house in Holloway Rd, registered keeper Albert Crossingham, brother of William Crossingham.

    Leave a comment:


  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Thanks JR
    I know that in sugdens book he covers this quite extensively but I lent it out and cant check, but I believe sugden names the constable and that sugden is very confident that the alibi was strong and that pizer couldn't have been the ripper.

    I don't know though. I have never totally illiminated him and still think the alibi is suspicious and that it cant rule him out for pollys murder.
    My copy is handy....but I can't find anything. Sugden does mention the incident but no names as far as I can see.
    It was really the lodging house keeper that supplied the alibi though; the PC chat happened early enough for Piser to have made his way to Buck's Row, but he was apparently in bed by then. He had to pay for his bed a second time as it had already been let out again, so that may have made it stick in the deputy's memory.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    Here's Piser's relevant evidence, from the Telegraph;

    "Where were you before two o'clock on Friday morning? - At eleven p.m. on Thursday I had my supper at the Round House.
    [Coroner] Did you go out? - Yes, as far as the Seven Sisters-road, and then returned towards Highgate way, down the Holloway-road. Turning, I saw the reflection of a fire. Coming as far as the church in the Holloway-road I saw two constables and the lodging-housekeeper talking together. There might have been one or two constables, I cannot say which. I asked a constable where the fire was, and he said it was a long way off. I asked him where he thought it was, and he replied: "Down by the Albert Docks." It was then about half-past one, to the best of my recollection. I went as far as Highbury Railway Station on the same side of the way, returned, and then went into the lodging house."

    At the end of his evidence, the coroner says;
    "It is only fair to say that the witness's statements can be corroborated"

    Presumably that includes the PC, but he isn't specifically mentioned. Being in Holloway Road, would that mean he was from G division?
    Thanks JR
    I know that in sugdens book he covers this quite extensively but I lent it out and cant check, but I believe sugden names the constable and that sugden is very confident that the alibi was strong and that pizer couldn't have been the ripper.

    I don't know though. I have never totally illiminated him and still think the alibi is suspicious and that it cant rule him out for pollys murder.

    Leave a comment:

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