John McCarthy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Miss Marple,

Is there anything in John McCarthy's profile to confirm that he was in the same masonic lodge as Abberline?

Regards,

Simon

[jmenges]

Mary was the only victim to have been living in a McCarthy owned/rented property at the time. The other victims drifted in and out of doss-houses owned/rented by Cooney, Crossingham and others.

I thought that it was quite possible McCarthy also owned 38 Dorset Street in 1888 (he is listed as its owner a few years later) where Liz Stride was known to frequent and where Michael Kidney resided at the time of the murders.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

JM

[Sam Flynn]

I thought that it was quite possible McCarthy also owned 38 Dorset Street in 1888 (he is listed as its owner a few years later)

According to Richard Dennis (in Jack the Ripper & the East End), McCarthy indeed seems to have leased or owned 38 Dorset Street in 1888, Jon.

where Liz Stride was known to frequent and where Michael Kidney resided at the time of the murders.

As far as that goes, I believe I'm correct in saying that we can only say that Kidney was living there at the time of Stride's inquest. Previously, he and Stride had cohabited at 35 Devonshire Street (a brief stroll from Dutfield's Yard) in St George's East, but this seems to have been mis-reported by the press as "35 Dorset Street". At the time of her death, Stride resided at Flower & Dean Street and I can't recall any direct connections between Liz Stride herself and property owned/leased by John McCarthy at any time.

[Pinkerton]

This site is constant repetition.For the benefit of newby Normy,
Mccarthy's family tree
John was eldest son of Daniel and Margaret McCarthy.
He was born in Dieppe in 1848
Marries Elizabeth Stephens 1877 at Sr Leonards WHITECHAPEL
1874 Son John born, later to change his name to Steve, have theatrical career, marry music hall star Marie Kendall 1895 and be the grandfather of actress Kay Kendall
1876 daughter Margaret born.
1878 daughter Elizabeth born
1886 daughter Anne born
1891 daughter Nelly born
1893 daughter Rosy born
John McCarthy also looked after his younger brother Daniel who had TB, he died in 1895. Daniel married Anne Crossingham, daughter of William Crossingham of the lodging house.
Jeremiah McCarthy, John's brother also married in same month and year as John. It was quite common for working class people to live together and half children before they married. One of my grandmother's born 1885 had her first child, before she married the father and went on to have nine others My East end Great grand father had nine children by my greatgrandmother, before they married, the last was born legit.
McCARTHY was a shrewd businessman who when he died, left quite a lot of money. He was also a strong family man with an extended family who took care of his own. There is nothing in his charactor to suggest a psycopath or disturbed man.
Miss Marple

Your point is well taken Miss Marple, however this is not the COMPLETE picture of McCarthy. Not that I believe McCarthy was the "Ripper" but he also was not a choir boy either...

He was once arrested for helping stage an illegal boxing match. Even after the cops began to break up the match he ignored the orders of the police and encouraged the boxers to keep fighting. He got off by using P.C. Thick as a character witness in court.

It was claimed that McCarthy was a prostitute's "bully" (pimp) by both Arthur Harding (the career criminal) and the famous sociologist Charles Booth. Though prostitutes were definitely a minority of the residents of Miller's Court there were SEVERAL of them known to be residents over the years. Most people on Casebook know of three of four but I have found three or four additional prostitutes though the newspapers archives that are referred to who once resided there.

And lastly he was a slumlord. He made good money charging exorbitant rent for crowded, dilapidated dwellings. This doesn't make him an 'evil' person per se (this practice was common). However the fact that he later donated to charity doesn't make up for this in my book. Al Capone and other mafia leaders also donated money to charity. And their purposes for doing so were not always above board.

[Sam Flynn]

It was claimed that McCarthy was a prostitute's "bully"...

I believe he was referred to as "a bully", rather than "a prostitutes' bully", Pinkerton - if so, "bully" on its own is open to interpretation, and it might just have meant that McCarthy was a tough-guy who didn't suffer narks gladly.

[Blues]

McCarthy's involvment?

Just a quick thought...Eddowes and others were said to have "known" who the Ripper was (I believe MJK said aloud the same sentiment? Can't remember) Anyway, Mary Cox is wringing her hands and going out as much as possible to work through the night because she is "afraid of owing someone money". Eddowes had stayed in the front room at Miller's Court (or one of them...I'm rushing) so she "knew" McCarthy. Hell, maybe MJK was such a drunk or so flippant that she didn't believe that McCarthy would ever do her harm over her back rent. (All of this brings to mind John Lee Hooker's House Rent Boogie(Blues)) Although I am not completely aware of or convinced that McCarthy had anything to do with it - is there any evidence that he was a "tough" who worked people over to make an example? Was he part of any organization that was remotely crime related and worked in any way like the Nicols gang? They weren't adverse to atrocious assaults on women to prove a point...maybe he wasn't either. If he was running a brothel or housed his whores at MC - which at least 2 stayed at - maybe he had them all in his stable and didn't care to let any do "freelance" work. Hence a pretty f'd up message to stay the course. I'm sure McCarthy could have left someone in charge of the till for half an hour + or so on the nights in question. Has his whereabouts ever been ascertained on those nights? And would anyone actually implicate him if they knew he was out and about and knew of his personal or group related ability to perform obnoxious violence upon his detractors? As with everyone else here, it's the never-ending quest to find JTR that makes it so interesting...As many of these questions are simply unanswerable. I apologize if these thoughts/sentiments appeared earlier in the thread or in another place...I simply can't read it all

As always - thanks for the read and your time.

Blues

[tom dooley]

Well, he may well have been a one-man Kray Twins but he seems to have been an erudite and witty fellow as shown here:

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_lo...in-london.html

its interesting you should call him a one man kray twin ? as the krays had many celebs as friends Mcarthy was a friend of the musichall star mari loyd and she helped him put his daughters on the stage . he must have been a interesting fellow loyd was the super star of her time

[miss marple]

Hi Tom Dooley,
You seem to be misinformed, try to read posts accurately. John McCarthy's daughters did not have theatrical careers, only his son John, who married Musical Hall Star Marie Kendall in 1895, she knew Marie Lloyd,they probably met her after that date. In 1888, John was 14 and Marie Lloyd 18,
Pinkerton,
I remember reading the account of the fixed boxing match, would like to see it again. Not sure if it referred to our McCarthy. I did some research on McCarthy's and there were about forty of them in London, [ the tribes of Kelly's Donovan's and McCarthy's in London at that time would make an army] several Johns,[ A tribe of McCarthy's in Castle Ally] some of whom were involved in criminal activity. It important to make sure its him, at not another John. I don't believe he was a saint, but I don't think he was evil either.
I don't know if McCarthy was in the same lodge as Abbeline, perhaps someone has that information? Cheers Miss Marple

[Sam Flynn]

I'm sure McCarthy could have left someone in charge of the till for half an hour + or so on the nights in question.

That's just it though, isn't it? In my view, any theory that requires a deus ex machina (like "he might have got someone to mind the shop"; "he might have been down from Liverpool on a business trip"; "he might have been staying at his chambers in the City"; etc) without which the suspect would not have been in a position to murder, is on a slippery slope to desperation... if not already at the bottom of the piste. Isn't it far more likely that the Ripper had no need to resort to such devices or excuses in order that he could kill?

[jmenges]

I remember reading the account of the fixed boxing match, would like to see it again. Not sure if it referred to our McCarthy. I did some research on McCarthy's and there were about forty of them in London, [ the tribes of Kelly's Donovan's and McCarthy's in London at that time would make an army] several Johns,[ A tribe of McCarthy's in Castle Ally] some of whom were involved in criminal activity. It important to make sure its him, at not another John.

John McCarthy was arrested along with Jimmy Smith's brother Richard (Richard and Jimmy Smith were the brothers-in-law of John Cooney) at St. Andrew's Hall, Tavistock Place in 1882. Sgt. Thicke testified to the men's upstanding characters at the Middlesex Sessions House. It should be something that can be easily confirmed if this case involved 'our' McCarthy.

JM

[miss marple]

newspaper

Hi JM,
I,m sure there was a newspaper account of the boxing match on site before the crash, have you a reference for the newspaper it was in?
Miss Marple

[Chava]

I'm sure McCarthy could have left someone in charge of the till for half an hour + or so on the nights in question. Has his whereabouts ever been ascertained on those nights?

I don't think so, and that is a good point. It's certainly possible that he had help in the shop, and I doubt he worked all night every night. However I think we can also consider another scenario, because I think it's possible that Kelly wasn't killed by the Ripper, but by a copy-cat. And McCarthy had means and opportunity for that. I'm very much on the fence, as I've said many times, as to whether Kelly was in fact murdered by the Ripper. The mutilation of the body is savage, and the throat is cut in the same way as the others. However the mutilations are far-more wide-ranging than the mutilations on the other poor women, and seem less directed at the primary sexual organs. An organ is missing, but it's the heart rather than the uterus. I do think it is possible that someone killed her and faked it to look like a Ripper killing. I also think it's possible that the mutilation of the body could owe as much to anger as to sexual perversion. I bear in mind that Kelly was down to her under-chemise or nightgown when she was killed, and that the Ripper traditionally didn't hang around when he had the chance to kill a victim, so I would be surprised if he graciously waited for his mark to remove all her clothes--which would have taken some time. So I suspect whoever killed her was let in by her rather than taken back to her room with her. Or whoever killed her had general access to her room and came in on her when she was asleep.

All the arguments against McCarthy being the Ripper are valid arguments. However, if we isolate the Kelly killing, he becomes much more of a possibility in my opinion. And without actual knowledge of where he was on the nights the other women died, I would never say that he is not the Ripper. There are an awful lot of people who have been named as suspects whom I believe are not guilty. But I can't discount any of them completely. No one gets a free pass on this unless they have a solid alibi in the files.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

Even some of those interviewed at the time have no solid alibis in the files - or, if they had, they are long gone along with the files themselves. There were infinitely more men in the area whose names we don't even know, several of them interviewed by the police in now-missing records, any one of whom may have been "better" suspects than McCarthy.

Against that backdrop, it's clear that all we have at our disposal when considering a suspect is pragmatism. Inventing devices to absent McCarthy from his shop, or believing that Kelly's murder was the work of another (some "copycat" that!), and then supposing that the copycat was McCarthy himself (on the basis of what motive?), is no reason to even include him in the frame - based, as it is, on two suppositions to begin with.

The reality is that McCarthy - along with a handful of other dramatis personae - stick in our minds largely because they are among the very few people whose names we have, who also happened to be in the vicinity at the time of a murder. McCarthy was by no means unique in this regard, and he (along with only one of the others - ironically, Packer) had a perfectly legitimate reason for being there, in that he had a business to run.

[miss marple]

motive

As profilers say, no normal person wakes up one morning and decides to be a serial killer. Serial killers have severe personality disorders, or they are psycopaths and usually have had troubled childhoods, and a history of violence or sadism.
So for McCarthy to murder these women, he would have to be either a motiveless psyco who enjoyed cutting up women. Not probable,
Or a master criminal like the Krays with an empire, brothals, bullies, strings of girls, a history of violence and intimidation, who meeted out terrible revenge on those who crossed him. No evidence for that either
The problem with McCarthy is that he has no reason or motive for killing these women or opportunity. He had a Chandlers shop, and rented out a few slums and lodgings. Ok so he is a bit of a crook and engaged in some dodgy deals, as did a lot of smart east enders who made money, but it was no exactly a criminal empire.But from what we know of his life, he was a pretty fair bloke with a good family life, not a weirdo.People seemed to trust him.
To go back to rent arrears[ ok I know its the wrong thread, Gareth] but what he said reflects his charactor, The rent was ''supposed to be 4/6 and the rent was to b paid weekly,you get the arrears as best you can.''
So I do believe, the tenants paid some rent every week, even Mary, but not all the rent, she got badly behind, but McCarthy expects that, he is not coming on heavy, as long as the tenants pay something. Paying a bit on account was how business was done. Whatever he was getting from the tenants was all profit.
I think he was doing quite nicely, without resorting to killing his tenants.
Miss Marple

[Chava]

I'm afraid I disagree with both of you. It is not a question of 'inventing devices to absent McCarthy from his shop' nor is it a question of picking a name out of a hat and making it fit. There is much to suggest Mary Jane Kelly was killed by the Ripper. There is much to suggest that Mary Jane Kelly was not. I know two extremely senior and well-known Ripperologists --and I don't mean people like myself, but people who have complete access to all the extant information--who believe that Kelly was not a Ripper victim. If she was not, then it's possible she was killed for other reasons.

If you choose to look at the mutilation patterns and decide from there that she is a victim, I wouldn't blame you, Gareth. I've already told you that your opinions are as valid as mine. But they are no more valid than mine.

I continue to be ambivalent as to whether Kelly was a Ripper kill. If she was not, I think that McCarthy should be considered as a possibility. The issue of the back-rent can be explained away, but it could also point to some relationship--and I have no idea exactly what kind of relationship--over and above the normal landlord/tenant agreement.