Ripper Facts

[Craig H]

Sorry - just read this question is currently being discussed on "the weapon" thread. Will read that now

[c.d.]

While it is tempting to try to associate a knife type with a profession and thus a suspect, there is always the possibility that the knife in question could have been stolen or found thus making the whole thing moot.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I'm aware of Dr Bond's remark on the type of instrument, but it always struck me as irrelevant because the suggestions he made do not fit the description given.
I own a clasp knife, and a butchers knife, they are not at all the same.
A clasp knife has a short blade 2.5-3.0" long, roughly, whereas a butchers knife, meaning the boning knife has a 6" blade, 3/4" wide.

This is a Victorian military issue clasp-knife.


A typical butchers boning knife.


These are 19th century Liston Surgical knives.

[Craig H]

I'm aware of Dr Bond's remark on the type of instrument, but it always struck me as irrelevant because the suggestions he made do not fit the description given.

Good point,

Strange for Bond to say the knife was at least 6 inches long then say it could have been a 3 inch clasp knife.

Damaso Marte provided a good summary of coroners' views on a recent post:

""Nichols inquest: "cuts must have been caused by a long-bladed knife, moderately sharp, and used with great violence"

Chapman inquest: "the instrument used at the throat and abdomen was the same. It must have been a very sharp knife with a thin narrow blade, and must have been at least 6 in. to 8 in. in length, probably longer. He should say that the injuries could not have been inflicted by a bayonet or a sword bayonet. They could have been done by such an instrument as a medical man used for post-mortem purposes, but the ordinary surgical cases might not contain such an instrument. Those used by the slaughtermen, well ground down, might have caused them. He thought the knives used by those in the leather trade would not be long enough in the blade."

Eddowes inquest: "The wounds on the face and abdomen prove that they were inflicted by a sharp, pointed knife, and that in the abdomen by one six inches or longer."

No opinion on the knife offered at the Stride and Kelly inquests, apparently.""

However, I understand a different type of shorter knife was used on Stride. Do we know what sort of knife that was ?

Craig

[Craig H]

There's an excellent "What kind of knives were used?" thread at
https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6708 where Errata draws on some deep expertise.

Errata and others explained how Jack used two different knives - "a short, thin, flexible blade for the throat and a stouter, longer, full tang blade for the abdomen. So, something like a skinning knife for the throat, and a dual edged dagger for the abdomen".

She argues that a long knife couldn't have been used for throat cutting as it was too long and the blade would break as it hit the ground.

Errata also argued "When Eddowes' kidney was taken, her liver was lacerated. That means a dual edged blade. It also means a long one. Not necessarily 8 inches long, but probably at least 5."

It's an interesting thread


Craig

[Scott Nelson]

Errata isn't an expert on knives. Wickerman (Jon Smyth) is.

[Batman]

Do you know there are reports of Bowie knives around the time of the murders in the press?

[Scott Nelson]

We briefly touch on Bowie knives in Ripperologist 140. I'm not aware of any contemporary press reports mentioning Bowie knives, but others might know.

[Batman]

We briefly touch on Bowie knives in Ripperologist 140. I'm not aware of any contemporary press reports mentioning Bowie knives, but others might know.

The reason I would think Bowie is because it has a guard to prevent slippage, which would be very important to JtR. Also, JtR ripped jagged quite a bit, meaning he was relying often on sheer brute force rather than sharpness to mutilate. You would need something robust that isn't going to break. I suspect a Bowie would make a good Tabram sternum wound instrument also.

[Craig H]

Errata isn't an expert on knives. Wickerman (Jon Smyth) is.

Thanks Scott for the advice.

Hi Jon,
Do you agree with the two knives idea ?
You provided three pictures above. What do you think were used ?
I read one view the long knife was thin (1 inch ??) which I thought would suggest a surgical knife, but then another view that it was more likely a dagger
Interested to hear your views
Craig

[Wickerman]

Hi Craig.

The sections of medical testimony available to us appear to indicate to me that two types of knife were used.

This circumstance can be used by those who suggest the killer was some local dosser, who we might not expect to carry a range of knives. Hence, two different killers.
In my view a person with the skill-set I see displayed is more likely to be in possession of a variety of knives, having some experience in that field.

[Craig H]

Thanks for this Jon, interesting.
Coroner said 6” knife was 1” wide.
Do you think it was the Liston surgical knife ?
I thought - from your picture- that 6” daggers were wider than 1”
Or were there other 6” knives that were 1” wide ?
Craig

[Sam Flynn]

The sections of medical testimony available to us appear to indicate to me that two types of knife were used.

Interesting. Where, do you think, the different knives were used?

[Wickerman]

Thanks for this Jon, interesting.
Coroner said 6” knife was 1” wide.
Do you think it was the Liston surgical knife ?
I thought - from your picture- that 6” daggers were wider than 1”
Or were there other 6” knives that were 1” wide ?
Craig

Generally speaking a dagger is a knife with two sharp sides.
If I recall, it was Dr Killeen who first mentioned "dagger". He also described the weapon as some sort of "sword-bayonet". I guess so as to not be confused with the long triangular bayonet which had been the standard issue for decades.
That said, I don't include Tabram as a Ripper victim.

This was an 1888 sword-bayonet, which has a 'dagger' type blade.



I'm not sure we can identify the type of knife used in any given case because the autopsy records have not survived.

[Wickerman]

This is a Shoemaker's Knife of roughly the same period.



The handle part would be wrapped in leather or some other material.