Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[Phil H]

It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Flemming was NOT exceptionally tall, but we cannot IGNORE the written evidence. Whatever may be LIKELY, we have no reason wholly to dismiss the entry.

It's far too tall for the East End 1888.

Not a safe conclusion. He could have been known and accepted as very tall and people had got beyond mentioning it. Equally, you can have exceptionally tall, heavy, short etc people in any population. I don't think that is a safe conclusion.

Too tall to be not commented on by the medics.

We don't know what the medics commented on. we only know no comment was made in the records we have.

Too tall to have not been mentioned by MJK and her friends.

Again Flemming is only mentioned at second hand, we have no idea how he was perceived or spoken of at the time. the fact that his exceptional height was not mentioned in the records we have tells us/proves nothing.

And 11st to 11st8lbs make a more than surprisingly thin fellow.

So he was very thin? People are.

Either on this thread or elsewhere on Casebook, I posted a picture of "Long Sol" Meredith, an American Civil War general (Union forces). That was in the 1860s so very much in the time-frame we are considering. Lincoln himself was tall and "rangey". Meredith was six seven and evidently not portly (see re-posted pic). While his unusual height was referenced in his nickname, it does not appear to have stopped him doing his job.

So while I myself work on a normal height for Flemming and assume a mistake in the records, I am equally open (as I should be) to a tall thin man.

Phil

[Lechmere]

Mike
It is a long cherished belief among the more strident Hutchinsonites that he was actually the seccond coming of Fleming. Strictly they are Flutchinsonites but they pretend to be open minded on the subject to avoid derision.
it is a religion as can be Sussed out by the sermons

[DVV]

The GSG was copied correctly by one person. Apples and oranges, David. I am suggesting that both the height of 6'7" and the odds of a height mistake on the only record of a modern suspect are similarly long. For what it's worth, I don't believe the 67 inch theory is particularly viable. I believe there was someone 6'7" in the asylum and it was either Fleming or another person brought in at about the same time. If that were the case...that it was a mix-up of names with details because the official was super busy, I'd absolutely accept that. If all records were always recorded in feet and inches, I don't see that 67 inch mistake being made. Just my opinion. I would like to see a list of others admitted on that day or within a day either way.

Mike

Well, perhaps neither Long nor Halse did copy the GSG correctly. Who knows ? And beside, we find "jewes" instead (?) of "juwes" in some reports. Mistakes do abound.

As for 67 inches, Debs merely made a suggestion. I don't think "all records were recorded in feet and inches" - Debs said some were in inches only, I have no reason to doubt her word.
Yours is also a reasonable one. And I have still that "6" problem in mind.

[DVV]

Mike
It is a long cherished belief among the more strident Hutchinsonites that he was actually the seccond coming of Fleming. Strictly they are Flutchinsonites but they pretend to be open minded on the subject to avoid derision.
it is a religion as can be Sussed out by the sermons

The only thing I tend to avoid is your ridiculous suspect theory.

The carman who could easily walk away to avoid another carman, that means.

I know, you're bitter because you have failed to convince anybody - except Fish and your brother-in-law.

And worse : you have even taken the name of your suspect as your alias. Now you're married to him and compelled to stick to your theory.

My heart bleeds !

[Fisherman]

David:

Wishful thinking, Fish ?

Yup. Wishful thinking/wet dreams.

What have you to say, except the tantramantric : "it's written once, so it has to be true" ?

Oh-oh. Got it wrong again, didn´t you? I´ll just reiterate, then: It does not HAVE to be true, it may or may not be true, but a record is a record, and should be taken much more seriously than wishful thinking.

Or : "6'7 isn't too tall."
Which is wrong, clearly and statiscally so.

Is it? Then tell me, what is it TOO tall for? Your taste? Or the realms of possibility?

It's far too tall for the East End 1888.

No. Galton tells us that there were fivehundred people reaching the height of 6 ft 5 and over in Victorian London. He is the authority, you are the wishful thinker.

Too tall to be not commented on by the medics.

Balderdash.

Too tall to have not been mentioned by MJK and her friends.

... and more of the same. This has been dealt with myriads of times.

And 11st to 11st8lbs make a more than surprisingly thin fellow.

Nope. Mildly thin, not surprisingly thin, as per the WHO, who - incidentally - is the authority, while you are the wishful thinker.

(I'm 20 centimeters shorter, 5 kilos heavier, and I'm already thin.)

Says ...?

A likely mistake, that's all you have against Fleming's candidacy. Or so it seems.

To ...?

And you use this likely mistake to prevent any serious discussion about Fleming.

No, I don´t. I use it to make the point that there is a lot of revisionism and gun-jumping going on. A serious discussion about Fleming is better served without that.

However, Colin Roberts, Lynn Cates, Dave, Garry, Debs, Roy and others agree that 6'7 is a possible or probable mistake. And they are not obsessed by Fleming-the-Ripper, as far as I know.

Ben. You forgot Ben! And Sally! How did that come about? And you forgot me too; I also say that it is a possible mistake (so you can conveniently group me in with the ones who would never say probable)

All the best,
Fisherman

[Phil H]

Balderdash.

Ah! Casebook!

How nice to see the polite exchanges of academic discussion are not yet dead. That reasoned argument and detailed refutations still are the bedrock of our discussions.

Phil

[Abby Normal]

Mmm - he suggested it, and then he took a look at how it tallied with the facts. And guess where he ended up?

I would put it to you that any person interested in the case and with an average or over average gift for creating different scenarios would sooner or later in the process of taking in the Ripper facts ask himself if Hutchinson and Fleming were interconnected.
Likewise, anybody who did do this, and who pursued the case factwise, would also arrive at the inevitable conclusion that they were not one and the same.

We are not equivalent with our initial mistakes, David - we are the sum of what we´ve managed to learn from them. Some learn more, some less. That´s the way of life.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi fish, GM, DVV

Fleming used an alias already with James Evans. Seems like he had the habit of pretending he was someone else. Maybe he used the alias George Hutchinson at one time.


But of course fish you know all about people using aliases for nefarious reasons. ; )

[Fisherman]

Balderdash.

Ah! Casebook!

How nice to see the polite exchanges of academic discussion are not yet dead. That reasoned argument and detailed refutations still are the bedrock of our discussions.

Phil

Luckily, Dave had you to tell him in a better brought up manner that his idea that the medics must have commented on Evans/Flemings height is just a waste of time.
Myself, I have said the same thing a thousand times, and so I am running out of useful synonyms. Wait til he posts the same stuff once more, Phil..!

All the best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

Balderdash.

Ah! Casebook!

How nice to see the polite exchanges of academic discussion are not yet dead. That reasoned argument and detailed refutations still are the bedrock of our discussions.

Phil

You see, Phil, it's impossible to have a discussion on Fleming's candidacy. Whatever you may say, the height is brought back as if it was the gospel truth, and the unique topic.
Brought by by whom ?
By who we know.

It's just as if you were posting in a Cross-Lechmere thread to hammer daily the same objection : "Cross could have easily walked away to avoid Paul, so he is not the Ripper".

That would be boring, don't you think ?

But that is just the game they are playing here.

[Fisherman]

Hi fish, GM, DVV

Fleming used an alias already with James Evans. Seems like he had the habit of pretending he was someone else. Maybe he used the alias George Hutchinson at one time.


But of course fish you know all about people using aliases for nefarious reasons. ; )

True enough! And I´m one up here, since I have proof that my guy DID use a false name. One up on Toppy, I mean - not on Evans/Fleming.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

As there was no "Jack the Ripper", this mythical personage could not have been Joseph Fleming or, whilst we're at it, any other suspect you might care to name.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

David:

... it's impossible to have a discussion on Fleming's candidacy. Whatever you may say, the height is brought back as if it was the gospel truth...

No once again. I am not saying that it is the gospel truth. I am saying that it may be right and it may be wrong, but the records speak for it being right.

Shall I say it once more? Or can we reach an understanding here? Fisherman says that the height record may be mistaken, but he thinks it is wisest to opt for it being correct, since the overwhelming majority of height recordings are.

Once more? No?

The next time you say that I am stating that Fleming/Evans must have been 6 ft 7 you will be lying. I advice against it. I am saying that I find it the better guess that it is correct.

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

Luckily, Dave had you to tell him in a better brought up manner that his idea that the medics must have commented on Evans/Flemings height is just a waste of time.
Myself, I have said the same thing a thousand times, and so I am running out of useful synonyms. Wait til he posts the same stuff once more, Phil..!

All the best,
Fisherman

Keep us posted, Fish, I'm not tired yet.

For the record, I observe that :

no comment on his height nor thinness from the staff

not a word from Barnett

nothing from Venturney

nothing from Mrs McCarthy and Co.

And a newspaper article about a 6'6 little big man.

[DVV]

Fisherman says that the height record may be mistaken, but he thinks it is wisest to opt for it being correct, since the overwhelming majority of height recordings are.
Fisherman[/B]

It's a bit like saying that most trains arrive on time, Fish.

And I think it is wisest to use good common sense, to remember how extraordinarily tall 6'7 would have been, how extraordinarily thin he would have been, to notice the complete lack of any mention of Fleming-the-Giant, etc etc.

6'7 ?
I bet his coffin isn't even that long.

Cheers

[DVV]

Fleming used an alias already with James Evans. Seems like he had the habit of pretending he was someone else. Maybe he used the alias George Hutchinson at one time.

Hi Abby,

I certainly agree.
But after hundreds posts focused on the height, if we dare to speculate on this subject, we'll be showered with posts about Toppy's signature.

They sure fear Flemtchinson to prevent any discussion on the subject.

Cheers