Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[DVV]

Basket bollocks

Ah.
I see.
By 1886 MJK specialized in "men in the building trade from Bethnal Green".

The timing and the trade do match - oh no !
As Barnett and Venturney's "she was very fond of him" does match the man in the building trade she had loved enough to marry - noooooo !

Last but not least, there was a real Joseph Fleming son of a plasterer born in Bethnal Green... dossing in Whitechapel from 1888 to 92.

Speculation ! hearsay ! nonsense ! not proven ! 6ft7 ! Basket-ball ! Uma Thurman !

[DVV]

Hello Garry.

Might I suggest you conduct this same basic research in the region of Spalding, Lincolnshire. I'm sure we can come up with similar stats to prove James Bradshaw couldn't exist either.

In other terms :
6'6 was tall enough to be exhibited in a circus and in a newspaper article, while 6'7 was too short to be worth a single word.

I may agree, but not this week.

[Sally]

Ah.
I see.
By 1886 MJK specialized in "men in the building trade from Bethnal Green".

The timing and the trade do match - oh no !
As Barnett and Venturney's "she was very fond of him" does match the man in the building trade she had loved enough to marry - noooooo !

Last but not least, there was a real Joseph Fleming son of a plasterer born in Bethnal Green... dossing in Whitechapel from 1888 to 92.

Speculation ! hearsay ! nonsense ! not proven ! 6ft7 ! Basket-ball ! Uma Thurman !

Besides which, David, most of what Kelly told Barnett about her life since coming to London now appears to be true - I've just read Neal Shelden's excellent new book which brings to light the people she mentioned to him, and those who came forward after her death.

Fascinating stuff.

Even less reason, thus, to doubt the reality of Fleming the mason's plasterer beau.

So much for 'unreliable' Barnett.

[Garry Wroe]

Stats are no use unless you are looking at general features like the colour of his hair or eyes, etc.

Er, no, Jon. That's just about as far away from statistical reality as it's possible to get.

No-one denies the height being discussed is out of the ordinary, and anyone who knows the value of stats already knows that stats are only useful when discussing 'the ordinary'.

Again, Jon, no. Statistical analyses are employed every day to detect the existence of extraordinary phenomena.

An exception never shows up in statistics, only the average. So lets dispense with the pretense that stats can be an indicator in this argument.

Staggering.

To the detriment of statistics nationwide, James Bradshaw existed, but the stats say he couldn't.

I'd be interested in seeing the source for that statement, Jon. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[Colin Roberts]

Stats are no use unless you are looking at general features like the colour of his hair or eyes, etc.

No-one denies the height being discussed is out of the ordinary, and anyone who knows the value of stats already knows that stats are only useful when discussing 'the ordinary'.
An exception never shows up in statistics, only the average. So lets dispense with the pretense that stats can be an indicator in this argument.

To the detriment of statistics nationwide, James Bradshaw existed, but the stats say he couldn't.

Oh Dear!

---

Let's say for the sake of argument that the mean height of adult males in London's 1888 East End was 5' 6", and that the standard deviation was 4".

We would then expect the following:

- that 68% of adult male East Enders would fall within one standard deviation of the mean: i.e. range in height between 5' 2" and 5' 10".

- that 95% of adult male East Enders would fall within two standard deviations of the mean: i.e. range in height between 4' 10" and 6' 2".

- that 99% of adult male East Enders would fall within three standard deviations of the mean: i.e. range in height between 4' 6" and 6' 6".

~~~

- that 0.5% of adult male East Enders would fall below three standard deviations of the mean: i.e. stand shorter than 4' 6".

- that 0.5% of adult male East Enders would fall above three standard deviations of the mean: i.e. stand taller than 6' 6".

So the expectation - in this hypothetical instance - would be that 1 in 200 adult male East Enders would stand taller than 6' 6".

Statisticians, Jon, are infinitely more cognizant of the existence of outliers than are any of the naysayers that typically pooh-pooh statistical/probability theory for presumably being too … rigid.

[Colin Roberts]

The difference in address is puzzling. With such a distinctive premises number (16 F
Block) it seems unlikely that Evans would have moved within the short time between 27
June (his discharge from the first admission) and 3 July (his second admission) to a
different street but exactly the same house number. The location of both streets make
them feasible candidates. Glass Street is in Bethnal Green, off Heath Road and Royal
Mint Street is, in effect, the western continuation of Cable Street.

The two addresses are one and the same, Chris, just as Rob noted on JTR Forums.

This particular set of Peabody Buildings was situated on the southwest corner of Royal Mint Street and Glass House Street.

[Brenda]

.

Someone asked a few days back if I thought Fleming walked around with his name stamped on his forehead. No, no, no.

But...this was back in the days before TV, radio, and a lot of other diversions that most Whitechapel people couldn't have afforded anyway. I would dare to say that a lot of people found their diversion in gossip, and a guy like Fleming, at 6'7", would have caused quite a bit of discussion as he went about his business. Everyone would have known who he was even if they didn't know his name. "That bloke almost 7' that's always hanging about on the corner every Sunday" "Oh yes, I know exactly who you are talking about."

[DVV]

Exactly, Brenda.

[The Good Michael]

Everyone would have known who he was even if they didn't know his name. "That bloke almost 7' that's always hanging about on the corner every Sunday" "Oh yes, I know exactly who you are talking about."

If they mentioned height, yes...no evidence they did. No one said that Kelly said he was tall, short, or medium. No evidence of any details. One person said he ill-used her. One person said he was a costermonger. One person said he was in the building trade. One person said she would have married him. No connectivity between any statements at all. The only real stuff we have are medical records and census maybes.

Mike

[Lechmere]

Brenda
If he was visually recognised as that 'extra tall bloke', why would anyone have known exactly who Barnett was talking about when he mentioned someone called Joe Fleming?
If Evans/Fleming was an introverted type who didn't talk much to strangers then how would anyone know his name as he walked about?

[DVV]

If they mentioned height, yes...no evidence they did. No one said that Kelly said he was tall, short, or medium. No evidence of any details. One person said he ill-used her. One person said he was a costermonger. One person said he was in the building trade. One person said she would have married him. No connectivity between any statements at all. The only real stuff we have are medical records and census maybes.

Mike

With respect, what a bad post, Mike.

Really, no "connectivity" between Barnett and Venturney ?
On the one hand, they both said : "MJK was very fond of him, and he used to visit her".
On the other, neither Barnett nor Venturney seem to know what was his job in 1888. That's all.

Barnett said, quite positively, that he was a mason's plasterer AT THE TIME he was living with MJK in Bethnal Green.
While Venturney rather talks of his trade at the time he used to visit Mary, ie : when she was living with Barnett (as evidenced from the détails she provides about Fleming being jealous). And as you know, she didn't say positively : "He was a costermonger" but only : "I think he was a costermonger". I'm sure you see the difference.

The connectivity between "Joseph" (as Barnett said) and "Joe" (as Venturney said), "very fond of him" (as Barnett said) and "very fond of him" (as Venturney said), "used to visit her" (as Barnett said) and "used to visit her" (as Venturney said) is OBVIOUS to everybody, except a few posters - for whatever (pitiful) reason.

And there is another obvious connectivity between "Fleming working as a mason's plasterer in Bethnal Green while he was living with MJK" (Barnett) and "the man in the building trade who was living with MJK in Bethnal Green" (Mrs Carthy).
Same period, same trade.
Oh, but that's so nebulous and complicated !

[Lechmere]

Given her profession I am sure that many locals were 'very fond' of Kelly and 'used to visit her'.
Venturney is heralded as corroboration - apart from the awkward costermonger bit. Cherry pick.

[DVV]

Post of the year, Lechmere.

You're on this thread to make a fool of yourself, are you not ?

Prostitutes are very fond of their clients, that's what you are arguing now ?

It's both silly and disgusting.

If such was the case - in the nightmarish macho world you seem to live in - then why did Venturney mention an individual specifically ?

Sorry all for replying to a post that deserves no reply.

edit : please don't bother arguing that you said her clients were "very fond of her". You know it's false. She was very fond of him, according to Barnett and Venturney.

[Lechmere]

Colin
Evans/Fleming’s recorded height would make him an outlier. But as you say, statisticians are cognizant with the existence of outliers.

Gary
We have nothing to substantiate that anyone knowingly saw Evans/Fleming – with or without Kelly.
This includes Mrs (Mc) Carthy and Mrs Phoenix.
Therefore it is not surprising that we have no record that his height was commented on.
That quite simply is why, if he was indeed 6 foot 7, his height over and above whatever the average height may have been is irrelevant.

DVV
Spare me your moralising.
By the way the Lincolnshire Giant is irrelevant as he clearly was nowhere near being the tallest man in England. If the story tells us anything, then it illustrates how fallible some journalists can be and how parochial certain parts of the country were.
If you think that it shows that Evans/Fleming would have appeared at some point in the East End Observer or something similar had he truly been 6 foot 7, then you are clutching at straws.
The Lincolnshire Giant joined a travelling menagerie and made something out of his height – and you know what – such side-shows would often over promote such things. Touring the Lincolnshire villages they would be able to make all sorts of claims.

In answer to an earlier point you made, whatever may or may not have caused Kosminski’s dramatic weight loss while he was an inmate – twice the proportion compared to Evans Fleming – it was not commented on in his medical records. Just as Fleming’s lesser weight loss was not commented on.

[Sally]

Given her profession I am sure that many locals were 'very fond' of Kelly and 'used to visit her'.
Venturney is heralded as corroboration - apart from the awkward costermonger bit. Cherry pick.

Except of course, that Kelly was not thought by those who knew her while she was living with Barnett to be prostituting herself - at least not until he lost his job - and even then it seems to have been a bone of contention between them.

But perhaps we might suggest that Barnett was her pimp next?