Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[Debra A]

I didn't realise that straw clutching was so noisy,

Victorians nearly always measured things using the various measures -height just in inches would be a rarity. I have told you repeatedly that every record at Stone is in feet and inches. The chances of them having some sort of height ruler just In inches is small to say the least.

The Evans/Fleming height is given on the same page (when the book is open) as the various weight measurements that were added in a manner that clearly is very suggestive that the book was used as a working document. They are scruffy and hurriedly written - not written in best.
check kosminski's colney hatch record. The admission record is very neat, the updates are scruffy.
kosminski's weight loss was twice as great as Fleming's and it wasn't commented on. For kosminski's bmi to be normal he must have been a midget but this isn't commented on...
we have no way of knowing whether Fleminig's real age was ever known.

I would put it that on the balance of probabilities the height record is correct. That is the stance any sensible historical researcher would take.

Fleming's full date and place of birth were known to the City of London Union who paid for Fleming's upkeep at Stone. The details, along with the full names of his parents were recorded in the City of London Union orders of removal records which I posted somewhere a while back.
Although those details were recorded for a specific purpose (deciding settlement) it is difficult to believe the actual asylum didn't receive or already have these details.

[Lechmere]

For all the huffing and puffing the height - weight ratio is not that unusual. The height is taller than average - unusually tall - but not ridiculously tall, despite exaggerated claims.
Also there is a fundamental misunderstanding over that sort of height - which is a function of genetics not local diet.

Sally
I thought you were presenting yourself as a neutral disinterested observer.
why haven't you put forward the 6 foot 1 inch alternative?
are you forgetting your role?

[DVV]

Fleming's full date and place of birth were known to the City of London Union who paid for Fleming's upkeep at Stone. The details, along with the full names of his parents were recorded in the City of London Union orders of removal records which I posted somewhere a while back.
Although those details were recorded for a specific purpose (deciding settlement) it is difficult to believe the actual asylum didn't receive or already have these details.

Thanks for this, Debra.
Hope it will help Lechmere.
And I won't repeat that since Henrietta came to ascertain the real identity of one James Evans, etc etc....

[DVV]

Although the death certificate gives the cause of death as "gangrene of the leg", as Philip Sugden said, some of Kosminski's physical symptoms "suggest that he may have been suffering from cancer". In any case, it seems likely that Kosminski's low weight at the end of his life (ninety six pounds) was a result of disease or perhaps the refusal to eat and should not be taken as an indication of Kosminski's weight or build during the time of the Ripper murders, some thirty years earlier.

Robert House, JTR and the case for Scotland Yard's prime suspect, p197

[Sally]

Ed -

I thought you were presenting yourself as a neutral disinterested observer.

Oh no. I don't think I said I was disinterested. Interested, yes. Obsessed - No.

But perhaps I should clarify that for you, again - just in case you read 'interest' to mean 'convinced that Fleming was Jack the Ripper' Stranger things have happened....


As succinctly pointed out by Richard, Fleming should be (and is, by many) considered a person of interest in the case. Simple process of logic at work there - no cognitive leapfrog necessary. All very simple.


As to his height, the 6' 7" entry can be twisted, pulled, and spun any which way you like; but at the end of the day, it remains an extraordinary height. It is remarkable. And that is why I - and indeed the great majority of people taking an interest in the matter - express a doubt. As I said many pages back, it should be considered with caution. That is entirely reasonable, and I stand by it.

why haven't you put forward the 6 foot 1 inch alternative?

Um... what for? I have nothing to prove here - it was something that occurred to me in passing, that's all. For all I know, Fleming may have been 6' 1". My contention is above - here it is again: 6' 7" would be remarkable. I consider it unlikely for reasons posted ad nauseum. An error is plausible. Given the statistics - which tell us that the average height of a man in the East End at that time was much shorter (actually since reading Garry's earlier post I seem to recall reading that it was 5' 6") a 5' 7" height is perhaps most likely; but certainly not exclusive.

I don't really see a way forward with this, other than those I've already suggested.

[Sally]

Ed -

For all the huffing and puffing the height - weight ratio is not that unusual.

Yes it is.

The height is taller than average - unusually tall - but not ridiculously tall, despite exaggerated claims.

'Taller than average'?

Remarkably tall - no exaggeration necessary.

What a silly argument this is.

Since we can all apparently believe what we like without any realistic hope of verification; I think I'm going to stick with the Ent idea from now on. It's beautifully logical. But instead of 6' 7", I'm going to argue for a height of 7' 6" from now on - simple transposition of the figures - and much more likely for a walking tree.

[Garry Wroe]

It supports what is already known; that the social conditions in the East End were the worst in London. Social and economic deprivation would make the production of a healthy 6' 7" man truly extraordinary.

Bethnal Green was considered to have been the most impoverished district in the whole of England, Sally, but London was littered with similarly deprived neighbourhoods which were afflicted by poor health and astonishingly high mortality rates. Under such circumstances stunted growth would have been an inevitable reality, from which we may conclude that a 6’ 7” Fleming would have been a remarkable sight just about anywhere in the Capital.

Do you know of any such circumstances in Fleming's family?

Sorry, Sally. I know next to nothing about Fleming or his lineage.

[DVV]

'Taller than average'?
Remarkably tall - no exaggeration necessary.
What a silly argument this is.

6'7 for 11st.
Remarkably tall and remarkably thin.
In fact, it's Godzilla after his hunger strike.

[DVV]

Chris Scott (or Debs) has posted his family tree.
In which thread, that's the question.

[Sally]

Chris Scott (or Debs) has posted his family tree.
In which thread, that's the question.

That would be interesting to see if you can think where it was posted.

6'7 for 11st.
Remarkably tall and remarkably thin.
In fact, it's Godzilla after his hunger strike.

Hmm.... Yes, I could go with Godzilla. After all, anything is possible. It would explain the violent tendencies and suddenly the paranoid delusions of being chased by men don't seem to far-fetched after all.

But I'm afraid you'll have explain how it is that none of the witnesses ever mentioned the fact that Mary's ex was a terrorising, dinosaurish beast. Perhaps they never saw him?

And also how he fitted through the doors of the Victoria Home?

Sigh. Always another mystery to solve....

[DVV]

Here is it, Sally. With much thanks to Chris Scott

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2079&page=21

[Sally]

Here is it, Sally. With much thanks to Chris Scott

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2079&page=21

Much appreciated David - an interesting thread. Apart from basic biographical details, is much known about Fleming's family?

[DVV]

Not much, I'm afraid.
I recall having read something about Fleming's grandfather in court... (JTR forums I think). But nothing to back up the contention of Henrietta that "insanity has been in the family for 160 years".

[Chris Scott]

Much appreciated David - an interesting thread. Apart from basic biographical details, is much known about Fleming's family?

Hi Sally
The problem is we do not know whether Henrietta was saying that insanity was on her side or the family of Richard, Fleming's father. My own opinion is that the precision of the figure (if it IS correct) would imply that it was on her side whose history she would presumably know better than that of her husband's family. The figure of 160 years is given in admission papers dating from 1892 so, if Henrietta's calculations are correct, that would imply the onset of insanity in the family would date from some time around 1732.
We know about Fleming's father's family and I am taking the liberty of quiting below the section from "The Ripper in Ramsgate" which included info on Fleming as his father was born in this town and some of his family carried on living here.

"Now to Fleming himself. His name appears in the available records under the spellings of
Flemming and Fleming, but as his birth was registered under the latter form, that is the
one I shall adopt. He was born in Bethnal Green in 1859, the son of Richard and
Henrietta Fleming. His mother's maiden name was Henrietta Masom and his parents had
married in Lambeth in 1842. Joseph was the only surviving boy in a family of four - he
had an older sister Jane (born 1857) and two younger sisters, Mary Ann (born 1863) and
Jessie (born 1868). Two other sisters appear to have died young - Henrietta (born 1846)
and Sarah (born 1849) as well as an older brother William (born 1856) who also
disappears from the record. Joseph followed his father's trade, as Richard Fleming is also
listed as a plasterer, and it is through his father that we find the connection with
Ramsgate, for Richard Fleming was born in the town. Richard was born in 1821 and the
earliest mention of the family occurs in the 1841 census:
St. Lawrence Street, St Lawrence, Kent
Head: Richard Flemming aged 46 - Baker
Wife: Mary Flemming aged 45
Children:
Richard aged 20 - Baker
Alfred aged 9
By 1851 things had changed considerably. Richard's aged father is listed as a pauper in
the Minster Workhouse:
Richard Fleming aged 58
Pauper
Former baker born Ramsgate.
Richard Jnr. had by this time married and moved to London. He and his family are listed
in 1851 as follows:
7 Fellows Street North, Shoreditch
Head: Richard Fleming aged 29 born Ramsgate - Plasterer
Wife: Henrietta Fleming aged 29 born Camberwell
Children:
Henrietta aged 6 born Shoreditch
Sarah aged 2 born Shoreditch
In 1861 the family is listed as follows:
60 Wellington Street, Bethnal Green
Head: Richard Fleming aged 39 born Ramsgate - Plasterer
Wife: Henrietta Fleming aged 40 born Camberwell
Children:
William aged 5 born Shoreditch
Jane aged 4 born Shoreditch
Joseph aged 2 born Bethnal Green
In 1871 the family were at the same address:
Head: Richard Fleming aged 49 born Ramsgate - Plasterer
Wife: Henrietta Fleming aged 49 born Camberwell
Children:
Jane aged 14 born Hoxton
Joseph aged 12 born Bethnal Green
Mary Ann aged 8 born Bethnal Green
Jessie aged 3 born Bethnal Green
By 1881 Joseph had left the parental nest and we will follow more of his life later. His
father, Richard Fleming, died in Shoreditch in 1894 aged 72. His mother, Henrietta, lived
on until 1912 when she died in Shoreditch aged 90.
However, back to Ramsgate! Although Joseph's father, Richard, left for London when
young, his uncle, Alfred Fleming, stayed in the town. His addresses in consecutive census
years are as follows:
1851: Alfred, listed as a journeyman bricklayer, is a lodger in King Street. He lodges in a
public house called the Plough, run by George Star.
1861: Alfred has married and has a family. He and his wife Sarah live at Castle Cottages,
St Lawrence. They have three children - Clara aged 10, Henry aged 5 and Sarah aged 2.
1871: The family still live at Castle Cottages. Alfred and Sarah have two more children -
Alfred aged 7, Ellen aged 3 and a grandchild, Ernest aged 1.
1881: The family have moved to Finsbury Road. Two more grandchildren are listed -
William aged 8 and Maud aged 11 months.
1891: Still at Finsbury Road, the family have acquired further grandchildren: Edith aged
7, George aged 5, Francis aged 3 and Hettie aged 2.
1901: Alfred, now widowed, is living with his daughter and son in law at Hardres Street.
Alfred Fleming died in Ramsgate in 1903 at the age of 70.
So what happened to Joseph Fleming, Mary Kelly's former lover? The story is both
mysterious and intriguing. Four years after the Whitechapel murders, in 1892, Joseph
Fleming was admitted to the Stone Asylum, the City of London asylum near Dartford,
Kent. Some two and a half years later, in February 1895, he was transferred to Claybury
Hospital at Woodford Bridge in Essex. He was still at Claybury when he died on 28
August 1920. His age given at death was 65 but he would actually have been 61, being
born in 1859. His death was registered under the name of James Evans, so how can we
connect this man with Joseph Fleming? His records while he was a patient at Stone
Hospital list his mother as Henrietta but the confirmation comes from Fleming's death
certificate which gives his original name. The death certificate in full reads as follows:
"28 August 1920 at Claybury Mental Hospital, Urban District.
Joseph Fleming, otherwise James Evans.
Male, 65 years.
Of City of London Union Infirmary.
Previous address unknown. Chargeable to Bethnal Green, a dock labourer.
Cause of death, Pulmonary Tuberculosis, 6 months, 13 days
P.M. Certified by F. Paine, acting Medical Superintendent, Claybury Mental Hospital,
Ilford, 1 September 1920."
Fleming is listed at Claybury Asylum in the 1901 census as follows:
Pauper Patient:
James Evans aged 45
Single
Dock labourer
Born Bethnal Green
Lunatic
There is one further, albeit tentative, possible window into Joseph Fleming's whereabouts
close to the time of the murders themselves. This identification hinges on whether by
1888 Fleming had already adopted the name James Evans under which he was later
confined. In the Admissions register for the Whitechapel Union Infirmary for 1888 there
are two very interesting entries:
23 May 1888
Name: James Evans
Age: 28
Address: 16 F Block Royal Mint Street
Status: Single
Trade: Porter
Condition: Unsound Mind
Discharged: 27 June 1888 (To Workhouse)
3 July 1888
Name: James Evans
Age: 28
Address: 16 F Block Glass Street
Status: Single
Trade: Railway Porter
Condition: Insane
Discharged: 9 July 1888
The difference in address is puzzling. With such a distinctive premises number (16 F
Block) it seems unlikely that Evans would have moved within the short time between 27
June (his discharge from the first admission) and 3 July (his second admission) to a
different street but exactly the same house number. The location of both streets make
them feasible candidates. Glass Street is in Bethnal Green, off Heath Road and Royal
Mint Street is, in effect, the western continuation of Cable Street. It is also not stated in
the records what happened to Evans when he was discharged, despite being diagnosed
insane, on the second occasion. Whether this James Evans is one and the same as
Joseph Fleming who knew Mary Kelly must remain, for the moment, an open question.
There remains the issue of the address of Joseph's mother, Henrietta. In the 1891 census
she is listed living with one of her daughters:
123 Lever Street, City Road
Head: Henrietta Fleming aged 69 (Married) born Camberwell
Daughter: Jessie aged 23 born Bethnal Green - Brace machinist
At this time Joseph's father, Richard, was an inmate at the Holborn Union Infirmary.
In 1901, after Richard's death, Henrietta is listed as follows:
220 Chatham Avenue, Shoreditch
Head: Henrietta Fleming (Widow) aged 79 born Camberwell
Daughter: Jessie aged 33 born Bethnal Green - Brace machinist
Grand-daughter: Henrietta Finch aged 25 born Bethnal Green - Cork factory
At the time of Joseph's confinement at Stone her address is listed on his records as 261
Nile Street.
The question remains, of course, as to why Joseph Fleming was admitted to mental
hospital under an assumed name, a name which he retained for nearly 30 years until he
died. It is apparent that his real name was known to the authorities, as this was listed on
his death certificate. It would also be of great interest and relevance to find out the exact
nature of Fleming's mental condition that caused his admission and his confinement for
the rest of his life. This could perhaps be found in any surviving records from Stone or
Claybury and it is my hope to actively pursue research into these records in the near
future."

Please note that in the light of info I saw recently the James Evans I mentioned for whom he have records from the Infirmary in May and July 1888 is not, I am now sure, connected in any way with Joseph Fleming as his father is listed as also being named James Evans.

[DVV]

Please note that in the light of info I saw recently the James Evans I mentioned for whom he have records from the Infirmary in May and July 1888 is not, I am now sure, connected in any way with Joseph Fleming as his father is listed as also being named James Evans.

Hi Chris,

I'd say this James Evans is worth further research. A lunatic from Bethnal Green called James Evans... He's not Fleming, but could be the one from whom JF took his alias.

Many thanks