Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[Abby Normal]

We have an equation here for suspects that runs something like this, using an example of another suspect:

Montague John Druitt + Sir Melville Macnaghten notes = suspicion of being JtR

Or

James Maybrick + The Diary and the Watch = suspicion of being JtR

So what makes Joeseph Fleming fit this very simple equation?

God Bless

Darkendale

probably nowhere. Especially if he was 6' 7".

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

there is no doubt that Barnett's "Flemming" is Joseph Fleming who died in Claybury.
And little, very little indeed, that Venturney's Joe was the same individual.

Cheers amigo

I'd agree with your first pronouncement David and Ill stand by my reticence with that second notion. We hear from Barnett himself that Mary was quite fond of her plasterer, and that she lived with him before Barnett. That doesnt seem to match with the idea that he on occasion treated her ill...either while they were together, or while she was with Barnett. If this Joe treated her ill on occasion, it stands to reason that he would have done so if they had lived together, yet we hear no qualifying remark from Mary when speaking of her being happy in that relationship.

And it would put into question why she would continue to see him after they split. In fact she says she stays with Barnett..." because he is nice" to her. Sounds like someone who has left someone not so nice behind.

And if she is telling a friend about her ongoing love triangle, why wouldnt she mention that the other man is someone she lived with before Barnett?

I believe we may have another Joe David.

Cheers my friend.

[DVV]

I'm afraid you're wrong, my friend.

The essential detail comes from Barnett : it was a shame to say : "yes, she was very fond of him... and he used to visit her"... but he said so. He just didn't know he gave her money (of course, Mary didn't tell him)

And Venturney was obviously referring to the same guy, as evidenced by : "She was very fond of him"... and "he used to come".... and give her money.

It's up to you to believe in a second Joe, but since both of them "used to visit her" (according to the two witnesses), and since MJK was "very fond of...[them]" (again, according to both JB and JV), my bet is that those two Joes are in fact one Joe Fleming.

Would you agree ?

If you don't, I'll never drink one drop of Canadian whishey in the future.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm afraid you're wrong, my friend.

The essential detail comes from Barnett : it was a shame to say : "yes, she was very fond of him... and he used to visit her"... but he said so. He just didn't know he gave her money (of course, Mary didn't tell him)

And Venturney was obviously referring to the same guy, as evidenced by : "She was very fond of him"... and "he used to come".... and give her money.

It's up to you to believe in a second Joe, but since both of them "used to visit her" (according to the two witnesses), and since MJK was "very fond of...[them]" (again, according to both JB and JV), my bet is that those two Joes are in fact one Joe Fleming.

Would you agree ?

If you don't, I'll never drink one drop of Canadian whishey in the future.

That would be a great loss to you David, think that over a bit....cause I see your argument but I dont see it as a closed door. Again, if Mary was talking about someone she lived with just before Barnett, dont you agree that it would be normal for her to include that fact when mentioning him? And do we know why she and Fleming parted ways? Can we assume it was mutual and pleasant because she said later that she was "fond of him"?

She is living with Barnett and taking any money he gives her,... and apparently unknown to Barnett, she was doing the same with another Joe. But she stayed with Barnett. Why? Did she fear being "treated ill" by this other Joe if she went with him? And no-one moved in after he left, and there is no record of her entertaining anyone but Blotchy Face after the end of October in that room.

It seems to me that there is a dark side to the Joe she was seeing, one that is never mentioned in connection with her former live in lover. If she told Barnett about Fleming, then why not tell him that Fleming used to on occasion treat her ill while they were together? Why tell Julia that Fleming had that dark side yet not tell Barnett?

I think it would be the most natural thing in the world to mention that she once lived with the man when she confided in Julia...yet there is no mention of any formalized relationship.

Not a done deal David.....and Crown Royal isnt that easy to dismiss.

[DVV]

Interesting, Mike, but far from conclusive.
What we have points more to one Joe than two.

Now, let's have a deeper look at Julia's statement : "She was very fond of another man named Joe, and he had often ill-used her because she cohabited with Joe Barnett".

...

I think you will agree that such behaviour is more likely to be that of an ex-lover than of a new sweetheart.

Am I wrong ?

Cheers Mike

[Cogidubnus]

Not a done deal David.....and Crown Royal isnt that easy to dismiss.

It is if you happen to have a taste for Laphroaig 25 or Glenmorangie 20...

Even the "standard" ten year old Laphroaig is totally awesome...

And what a shame I simply can't afford it often!

All the best

Dave

[DVV]

Even the "standard" ten year old Laphroaig is totally awesome.
Dave

Oh, yes.
And what about Ardbeg 10, and Talisker.
10 to 14 years are actually the best.
Older are... how can I say... just for jolly ?

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

I don't disagree mon ami - but I'd recommend you taste the Laphroaig 25 just once before you die...it is...to die for!

All the best

Dave

[Sally]

Clynelish - compared to which Laphroaig taste like bog water.

Not that there's anything wrong with Laphroaig...

[DVV]

I don't disagree mon ami - but I'd recommend you taste the Laphroaig 25 just once before you die...it is...to die for!

All the best

Dave

I'm ready, anytime.
(To taste Laphroaig 25, and to die. No correlation.)

[Cogidubnus]

Seen but never tasted Sally...Is the youngest the fourteen? I went to a posh do once (about five years back) and the trolley came round with the Flora and Fauna (!) on board...I asked but they wanted £30 for a single measure...and for the oldest Laphroaig (I think it was 40) they wanted £50...you have to draw the line somewhere...

All the best

Dave

Clynelish - compared to which Laphroaig taste like bog water.

Not that there's anything wrong with Laphroaig...

[DVV]

Dave, it has become a rare malt. Now the whisky produced by this distillery is sold a "Brora".
Apprarently there is an 8 years still available as Clynelish, an 1997 single cask, and a few other editions by Signatory and Gordon & McPhail.

Not a peated malt, rather floral according to my tasting notes, but quite unique due to its oily character.

[Cogidubnus]

Rarity

Hi David

Yes I agree...I think the Flora and Fauna I saw was about 25 years old...it'd be about 30 now...I've never seen anything as young as 8 years though, else I might try it...

But the Laphroaig 25 is beautifully delicate...peat and seaweed...perhaps a slight oiliness...but all as an aftertaste....

Laphroaig 10 is beautifully upfront...the 25 is surprisingly subtle...

A little bit like the difference between Glenmorangie 10 and Glenmorangie 15 (though the tastes are totally different)...

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

I thought this was supposed to be a discussion of Canadian Whiskey gentlemen.....let us not be forgotten.

All the best

[harry]

Bed

Did the institution Joe was admitted to have ä long enough bed,or did he sleep with his Knees tucked underneath his chin?I'm Sure if he was that height,somewhere in the institution records there would have been some reference to itSpecial clothing too might have been a problem that drew attention,and been cited.
.